Creationism Vs. Evolution Debate - Nye Vs Ham

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by old-fart

That's true I suppose, and why I do leave open the possibility that there may be some higher power, I doubt that he (or she, or 'it') cares what I'm doing in my own bedroom (or dining room table) however.

Further to your point, I've never experienced fairies, unicorns, three headed aliens, leprechauns, dragons, ghosts, witches, centaurs, mermaids, yeti, devils, talking snakes, angels, intelligent good looking Edmontonians or any number of mythical magical creatures. It doesn't mean that they don't necessarily exist, just that the proof for them is glaringly limited to non-existent.

Your second paragraph is where religions etc. go wrong. Forget about all that crap, they as far as I know have nothing to do with god and don't affect my life.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by T@T

I experienced fairy tales when I was little, I'm guessing it's probably the same mental reward!

As you say, you are guessing.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that people believed these things because they were "so dense". People came up with explanations for natural phenomena that matched the observations they could make and previous knowledge they had available to them. One day, it is possible that the things we hold to be absolute truths are mocked in much the same way that we mock the idea that the Earth is flat. That doesn't make us stupid.

And I know you don't care about this (and I have no idea why I am even trying here), but calling people names and acting/arguing like you do does not exactly lend weight to your arguments. It doesn't make you look smarter or better than them.

I'm not trying to look smarter or better, just pointing out "IMO" it's stupid to believe in a religious God

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Occam's razor.

How does what I wrote have anything to so with Occam's razor? It doesn't.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by T@T

Hard to watch, not sure if it's low IQ or just something wired funny in the brain for these people.

Speaking of low IQs and poorly wired brains, I see that you have again chosen to enter the fray, and remove all doubt about your own intellectual fortitude.

Originally Posted by T@T

I experienced fairy tales when I was little, I'm guessing it's probably the same mental reward!

You "experienced fairy tales"? What the hell does that even mean? It seems that you think all religious experience can be boiled down to reading sacred texts, which really could not be further from the truth for the vast majority of people who would identify themselves with a particular religion. Even within the strict limits of Christianity, there is so many complex facets about what constitutes religious practice. You make a farce out of this topic every single time that you attempt to join these discussions, and it really doesn't serve anyone much good.

Originally Posted by T@T

I believe in things that can be physically seen not stories, especially from times when humans were so dense they thought the earth was flat and the center of everything...because that's what they were told.

Dense. Nice. Are you so "dense" as to imagine that the men who wrote the Bible between 2500–2000 years ago were intellectually any different from you? This is clearly a statement borne of ignorance: You have either not actually ever read the Bible, or you have not managed to comprehend much of what you have read. Don't feel bad. Most people don't understand the Bible because it is HARD. It is foreign; linguistically, socially, culturally, and geographically. It demands an enormous amount of patience and care to ensure that the texts themselves are understood in their appropriate context.

You are a lot like a creationist, actually. Since what you have in common with them is this abominable and exceptionally naïve hermeneutic which hamfistedly attempts to limit the text to impossible and inappropriately defined interpretive factors.

Originally Posted by T@T

It must be extremely confusing to be a christain these days, every bit of scientific evidence points to a 0% chance of a "religious" God, the Bible's stories now look like the were written by 10 year olds or authors for childrens books.

Spoken like someone who clearly has no understanding about what he is reading.

Originally Posted by T@T

When you talk about being close minded, I suggest you and everyone dumb enough to believe this junk look in a mirror and open your minds to reality not stories.

I have in my time as a religious studies instructor had lots of opportunities to engage with people of many different religions, and holding to various ideologies. I have dialoged and debated with actual creationists, and religious fundamentalists—some of whom are close family members. I can honestly say that I think you may be the most CLOSE MINDED person I have ever encountered in such discussions. The worst thing about you is that you do not even attempt to make an effort to understand things that you clearly do not. Over and over again, you simply spout off about your poorly formed perception of religious ideas, and declare by fiat—and in the face of actual adherents and experts—that you know so much better than they do.

For once. Stop. Listen. And learn from some of us who have a much, MUCH better handle on this topic.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

For once. Stop. Listen. And learn from some of us who have a much, MUCH better handle on this topic.

Oh look, everyones favorite long winded sunday school teacher, sorry dude I don't need lessons on how to be an atheist and I certainly don't want any dork teachings
.
Do yourself a favor and put me on your ignore list if I don't reach your standards.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

How does what I wrote have anything to so with Occam's razor? It doesn't.

Of course it does. Your hypothesis makes a positive assumption as to the existence of a deity. Mine doesn't.

Occam's razor simply states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected. That's all I was getting at.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by T@T

I'm not trying to look smarter or better, just pointing out "IMO" it's stupid to believe in a religious God

People far, far, far, far more intelligent than you have believed in a god. While many stupid people do, labelling a group of people as such proves more about your ability to reason than theirs

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Of course it does. Your hypothesis makes a positive assumption as to the existence of a deity. Mine doesn't.

Occam's razor simply states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected. That's all I was getting at.

Except that I don't think the non-believer's explanation is simpler than the deist's.

[TSXCman]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that people believed these things because they were "so dense". People came up with explanations for natural phenomena that matched the observations they could make and previous knowledge they had available to them. One day, it is possible that the things we hold to be absolute truths are mocked in much the same way that we mock the idea that the Earth is flat. That doesn't make us stupid.

And I know you don't care about this (and I have no idea why I am even trying here), but calling people names and acting/arguing like you do does not exactly lend weight to your arguments. It doesn't make you look smarter or better than them.

I have only had the pleasure of reading a few pages so far here, but I like what you are getting at here.

Something I have recently discussed with my father, not necessarily about religion, is that we are not perfect or all-knowing. Generally, the occupants of our world are more knowledgeable today than they were yesterday. We have an increasing pace in scientific study, debate, and communication methods. The resultant is that we learn more and share more at the same time with the rest of the world.

There was a time where groups of people made their best interpretation of what they were experiencing (like warmth and crop growth related to the sun). At their time, they may have come to the best spiritual or scientific explanation that they were capable of in their situation.

My personal observation is that as time continues, our understanding of the physical sciences grows, and accounts for the phenomenons that we experience are being explained very well by scientific study. It is not perfect, there are many unexplained things to learn, but it is the scientific research that is striving to figure them out.

[19Yzerman19]

Why are you guys arguing with him? He's not a thoughtful source of insight, he has nothing relevant to say and he's not going to enhance the debate. He's certainly not going to bother challenging his own assumptions, or lend any credence the perspectives of people with more experience in a subject he hasn't, and likely isn't able to, think about in any real depth. He's a waste of energy. What's the point?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Why are you guys arguing with him? He's not a thoughtful source of insight, he has nothing relevant to say and he's not going to enhance the debate. He's certainly not going to bother challenging his own assumptions, or lend any credence the perspectives of people with more experience in a subject he hasn't, and likely isn't able to, think about in any real depth. He's a waste of energy. What's the point?

Most people at either extreme of this discussion are.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by T@T

Every God ever named is a figment of human imagination, the bible and it's storys are no different.

If you're going to hold yourself up as a paragon of intellect in this thread, you should at least ensure you're using the proper possessive form of "its" and the proper spelling of "stories".

Grammar Nazism aside, you really are embarrassing yourself with your posts in this thread, and you're not at all being a positive representative for atheism. As a friendly piece of advice, I suggest you take a step back from posting on this subject until you've gained some more knowledge and maturity.

As a fellow atheist, reading your posts makes me cringe and gives me sympathy for the more moderate religious members of CP who had to endure Calgaryborn's rabid extremism as he advocated for their "side" prior to his banning.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Most people at either extreme of this discussion are.

Of course, and there are more of them on the believer side than the non-believer side, but this just goes to show you that no viewpoint has a monopoly on ignorance.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Of course, and there are more of them on the believer side than the non-believer side, but this just goes to show you that no viewpoint has a monopoly on ignorance.

Yip, and both extremes are so deeply entrenched that they will never move. I accept, that some atheist are rude, but doesn't a Christian being rude and "attacking" others fly in the face of Christianity?

I think the concept of a "God" is cool......

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

As a fellow atheist, reading your posts makes me cringe and gives me sympathy for the more moderate religious members of CP who had to endure Calgaryborn's rabid extremism as he advocated for their "side" prior to his banning.

Totally agree. There are great atheist posters here (like yourself, Thor and photon to name a few) who present atheism in a thoughtful and respectful manner on this board. I worry that non-atheists will read ten good posts by the likes above and one T@T post and come away thinking what a-holes atheists are.

I've been wanting to call T@T out for a while as he completely gives atheism a bad name in these threads, but otherwise is a fine poster. Thankfully Textcritic, with all his dork teachings, can do a much better job than I ever could. Hopefully he takes a look at how he presents himself ..

[Cheese]

Took a VERY smart man (men) to develop religion(s) and have people buy in on such a wide scale....or a big sword.

"It is said that men may not be the dreams of the Gods, but rather that the Gods are the dreams of men." - Carl Sagan

and

"The first clergyman was the first rascal who met the first fool" - Voltaire

To understand via the heart is not to understand.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

Except that I don't think the non-believer's explanation is simpler than the deist's.

Explain your reasoning; deism still makes a positive claim sans evidence. Atheism (save for gnostic atheism) does not make any claims, it rejects claims made without sufficient evidence.

Don't tell me we have to have this discussion again.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

You're right, and this is something that really bothers me when I am told I "believe no gods exist", because it simply isn't true. I just don't believe in any. I'm open to the possibility, but in light of bad or no evidence, I'm not compelled to accept any existence claims.

I'm 99.999% sure that there is no god but my skeptical nature requires I at least leave some room for discovery and advancement. This is a key principle of science... claims must be falsifiable.

You're back to belief, when I'm talking about experience. I respect your line of thought as if you do have an experience, you should not be burdened by all the extraneous beliefs involved with religion.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Yip, and both extremes are so deeply entrenched that they will never move. I accept, that some atheist are rude, but doesn't a Christian being rude and "attacking" others fly in the face of Christianity?

I think the concept of a "God" is cool......

very true. Many people call themselves Christians yet act very unChristian while many atheists don't know what it really means. The religion is so massively flawed that it is not fair to equate a true Christian with the religious group.

I'm not an atheist but I am a-religious, the problem I have is atheists often equate anyone not on their side with the religious while I think the very word religion doesn't have much to do with important philosophies and spirituality upon which they are founded. If anything religion should go, they are as corrupt as the government and often don't follow their own tenants. I'd like for atheists, extremists and everything inbetween to band together against the hypocrisy of religion. Even if you are atheist the idea of forgiveness and the golden rule are worth living by.