[News] Flames scratch Sven...again

[Rerun]

Would Sven probably be treated like this if Burke hadn't painted a target on his back before he'd even taken up residence in his brand spanking new office? I doubt it.

Lets face it. S**t runs downhill and its all ending up on Baertschi.
Lets spread it around a bit is all I say.

[FlameZilla]

This thread is SO November 5th.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Would Sven probably be treated like this if Burke hadn't painted a target on his back before he'd even taken up residence in his brand spanking new office? I doubt it.

Lets face it. S**t runs downhill and its all ending up on Baertschi.
Lets spread it around a bit is all I say.

Ummmm yes last year he was sent back to the AHL to learn and find his game so this isn't Brian Burke.

[nik-]

I didn't even mind that he sat last night because his game in Chicago really wasn't good. However, that combined with his unwarranted benching previously, combined with this whole "meritocracy" mantra that really isn't applied equally in the slightest makes this a really poor situation.

Originally Posted by FakenHaken

Ummmm yes last year he was sent back to the AHL to learn and find his game so this isn't Brian Burke.

Hartley was giving him 4 minutes a night. He wasn't playing lights out, but he sure as hell wasn't playing at a 4 minutes a night level. Hartley's treatment of Sven last year before he was sent down was garbage.

[SuperMatt18]

Also Sven has sat twice in 15 games so far.

It's not like they are sitting him in the pressbox every night, stunting his development because he is not playing, and not giving him an explanation or telling him what he needs to work on.

Hartley and the coaching staff appear to be working really closely with Sven and giving him lots of 1 on 1 coaching time. I'm going to be patient and let this one play out because it will likely be better for Sven in the long term.\

There can be more then one reason to sit a player, it's not always a punishment.

For veterans it is a punishment to be benched, for younger guys it can be as simple as giving them a different view of the game, taking a step back, and letting them learn.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Because that's the nature of sports, even at a young age. We're not talking about the real world. In the real world, you're sent for training seminars, you're given a role that "fits" for your personality or you're transferred into another department that allows you to grow. In sports, any sports, the goal is to win. If you're not good enough for the team, then you don't make the team. Simple as that.

This notion that Sven has his feelings hurt and should be coddled because of it is a bit rediculous.



I think I trust Hartley a bit more than a few random dudes on a message board to know what's best for Baertschi or the team in general. Let's not forget the youngsters (Tanguay in Colorado, Heatley in Atlanta, even Brodie/Monahan in Calgary) that Hartley has turned into pretty decent players.

Hartley hasn't done anything with Monahan/Brodie yet. Brodie was all Playfair, so I have no idea why you give him such credit (Hartley benched Brodie in our first game of the season last year in favour of players like Butler, and we were crushed... he knew it was a mistake). Monahan, while has played well over these first dozen or so games, has not proven enough to give Hartley a pat on the back. Monahan is just a really good prospect, which is why he was drafted high in the best draft in a decade.

A lot of people thought the Flames were doing the right thing being tough on Savard. Welp, 2 years after we trade him, he's scoring 97 points. Would have been nice to finally have that #1 centre.

And people ragged on Tanguay all the time on this board for being poor defensively and not caring during his entire career with the Flames. So how did Hartley actually help Tanguay in this respect? ...it probably has more to do with him being a point per game player in his prime. He's a natural talent.

Drury. A good (not great) player for 3 years of his career, and he fell off as quickly as any player has in this league. We don't want that from our prospects.

Hartley's resume on developing young players is as bad as it gets in the NHL.

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Would Sven probably be treated like this if Burke hadn't painted a target on his back before he'd even taken up residence in his brand spanking new office? I doubt it.

Lets face it. S**t runs downhill and its all ending up on Baertschi.
Lets spread it around a bit is all I say.

Yes he would. A rookie whose skill set is supposed to be dynamic offensive ability who is struggling offensively, despite being played with the top 2 forwards in offensive production, would most definitely be put in the press box every once in a while. He's averaging a shot per 18 shifts out there, just over a shot per game, that's hardly something you want to see out of Baertschi.

The **** is not ending up on Baertschi. He's put himself in this position and he needs to work out of it. I'm confident he will. Part of working out of it is learning not only on the ice but from up above, taking note of where the shots are taken on the ice, where players will pass and where they will dump and chase it. He's not sitting in the pressbox eating candy, or as your analogy suggests, being told to stay home from work. He's working in the pressbox. He's not getting a night off just because he's not on the line-up card.

[FakenHaken]

Hartley was responsible for Savard's turn around in the example you used in Atlanta. Who's to say Hartley won't turn Sven into a 90 point guy. A little early to suggest that Hartley and the coaching staff have ruined Sven already is it not?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by FakenHaken

Hartley was responsible for Savard's turn around in the example you used in Atlanta. Who's to say Hartley won't turn Sven into a 90 point guy. A little early to suggest that Hartley and the coaching staff have ruined Sven already is it not?

I'm not suggesting that they have ruined him, but yes, they are ruining him.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

And people ragged on Tanguay all the time on this board for being poor defensively and not caring during his entire career with the Flames. So how did Hartley actually help Tanguay in this respect? ...it probably has more to do with him being a point per game player in his prime. He's a natural talent.

Drury. A good (not great) player for 3 years of his career, and he fell off as quickly as any player has in this league. We don't want that from our prospects.

Hartley's resume on developing young players is as bad as it gets in the NHL.

B.S.

Hartley was great at developing young players in Colorado and it was a big reason they were good in his time there.

Hartley played a role in developing the following NHLers: Tanguay, Hejduk, Drury, Deadmarsh, Vrbata, Reinprect, Heatley, Kovalchuk, Stefan.

He coached all of those players in their first 1-3 NHL seasons. Just because you don't like how he is handling one player doesn't mean he is suddenly a terrible coach that doesn't know how to develop players.

How about Colborne, Brodie, Russell, Monahan, whom all young guys who are thriving under Hartley right now?

But no because Sven is playing bad it is all the coaches fault and they are ruining him.

We need to hold players accountable for there play on the ice because holding the coaches accountable is how we ended up with the mess of the team that led to this rebuild.

Also Brodie was benched in the first game last year because he had a poor camp and wasn't working hard. He seemed to get the message though and turned it around from then on out.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Hartley hasn't done anything with Monahan/Brodie yet. Brodie was all Playfair, so I have no idea why you give him such credit (Hartley benched Brodie in our first game of the season last year in favour of players like Butler, and we were crushed... he knew it was a mistake). Monahan, while has played well over these first dozen or so games, has not proven enough to give Hartley a pat on the back. Monahan is just a really good prospect, which is why he was drafted high in the best draft in a decade.

A lot of people thought the Flames were doing the right thing being tough on Savard. Welp, 2 years after we trade him, he's scoring 97 points. Would have been nice to finally have that #1 centre.

And people ragged on Tanguay all the time on this board for being poor defensively and not caring during his entire career with the Flames. So how did Hartley actually help Tanguay in this respect? ...it probably has more to do with him being a point per game player in his prime. He's a natural talent.

Drury. A good (not great) player for 3 years of his career, and he fell off as quickly as any player has in this league. We don't want that from our prospects.

Hartley's resume on developing young players is as bad as it gets in the NHL.

So when a player does well under Hartley's system it's either because of natural talent or the AHL coach? But if he doesn't then it's Hartley's fault?

Right.....


Maybe benching Brodie at the beginning of last season and giving him limited ice time for most of the beginning of the year is actually what turned him into a decent 23 year old 1st pairing D-man..... maybe. Who knows though, because we all know that Hartley has no clue what he's doing.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

A lot of people thought the Flames were doing the right thing being tough on Savard. Welp, 2 years after we trade him, he's scoring 97 points.

I wonder who his coach was?

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm not suggesting that they have ruined him, but yes, they are ruining him.

Alright everyone entitled to their opinion. I disagree. I would agree with you if they weren't actually investing time with Sven. IE extra time after practice, one on one video sessions, one on one meetings with not just the head coach but the GM. I see them actually trying to make Sven better and yes Sven is smart enough hockey IQ wise to sit in the press box and observe. He wouldn't be in the NHL if he wasn't that intelligent.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by saillias

I wonder who his coach was?

Hartley coached a 28 year old Savard for all of one season. He did not develop Savard.

Again, Savard had natural talent (top 2 playermaker in the league - this cannot be coached) that was being held back in Calgary due to politics (conflict with the coach).

Baertschi may become a great player like Savard, but if Hartley keeps it up, it won't be with the Flames. I want Baertschi to be a great player for the Calgary Flames, not the Buffalo Sabres of Boston Bruins.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think I trust Hartley a bit more than a few random dudes on a message board to know what's best for Baertschi or the team in general. Let's not forget the youngsters (Tanguay in Colorado, Heatley in Atlanta, even Brodie/Monahan in Calgary) that Hartley has turned into pretty decent players.

Heatley had almost 100 points in the NHL before Hartley was even the coach in Atlanta.

While you may believe that the "random dudes on the internet" are out of line questioning Hartley, there was a reason that this guy was out of NHL since 2007 and not coaching for a large part of that.

He certainly didn't do wonders for Braydon Coburn during his time with him.

[nik-]

In my mind Hartley is still here because the GM did him a favour, it bothers me that this guy has a hand in steering our club at such a crucial time. Him and the GM are both temps in my opinion and by the time we're a good team again, they'll both be gone.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm not suggesting that they have ruined him, but yes, they are ruining him.

You don't know what you are talking about.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

B.S.

Hartley was great at developing young players in Colorado and it was a big reason they were good in his time there.

Hartley played a role in developing the following NHLers: Tanguay, Hejduk, Drury, Deadmarsh, Vrbata, Reinprect, Heatley, Kovalchuk, Stefan, Lehtonen, and Coburn.

I'll address the Atlanta ones.

Both Heatley and Kovalchuk had 1.5 seasons full seasons in the NHL before Hartley came along, they were both well established NHLers by that point. Heatley had over 100 points by then and Kovalchuk wasn't far behind.

Patrik Stefan? Seriously? The guy was out of the NHL before Hartley was fired in Atlanta. I don't even know how you could even consider him a player who Hartley developed or had much of a postive influence on.

Lehtonen? Not too sure how much coaching he is giving the goalie. But ok.

Coburn was probably one of his biggest mistakes as a head coach. He blossemed into a solid player after he left Atlanta. He was a frequent healthy scratch during his final season in Atlanta.

[Dentoman]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm not suggesting that they have ruined him, but yes, they are ruining him.

There are a lot of assumptions in this thread .... but this one is over the top.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm not suggesting that they have ruined him, but yes, they are ruining him.

How should they be handling Sven then?

Do you want them to just hand him ice time and not worry about trying to fix the deficiencies in his game?

Send him to the AHL where he showed he is probably too good of a talent for last year?

Do you play him with better players? (Is ice time with Hudler and Monahan not good enough for Sven?)

They are trying to build a team of well rounded players that compete all over the ice. Not sure why benching Sven once every 7 games is a crime.

The one complaint I would have is that they are not giving Sven enough PP time. Hopefully that will change now with Glencross and Stempniak injured.