Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[polak]

Wow this thread makes the Off Topic forum seem like a Utopia of forward thinking.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Good point. Their moral views are less valid because they're poor.

No my point is that saying:

In fact the large majority of the world is even worse than Russia when it comes to gay rights.

Doesn't allow you the ability to ignore this law or the rights of LGBT in Russia. Thowing up the "things are worse in other places" defence is a cop out.

I am anit-boycott but pro display of LGBT support, ie: rainbow flags.

Good try though on your post......

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

No my point is that saying:




Doesn't allow you the ability to ignore this law or the rights of LGBT in Russia. Thowing up the "things are worse in other places" defence is a cop out.

I am anit-boycott but pro display of LGBT support, ie: rainbow flags.

Good try though on your post......

I never said it was a defense. Christ you people need to stop jumping to conclussions so quickly and actually read what is said.

Someone said it was the "Global Community" against Russia's gay rights laws. I simply pointed out it can not be the "Global Community" when the majority of the globe is worse than Russia in that regard. People need to stop misrepresenting facts. It is North America and Western Europe against this, quite frankly the rest of the word probably doesn't give a damn.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

and that is why thousands of innocent people die in unneeded wars because people think they have to force chance.

also it's not the global community that wants to stop Russia, its North America and Western Europe. In fact the large majority of the world is even worse than Russia when it comes to gay rights.

No one in this thread has suggested or advocated military intervention in Russia in order to install a more tolerant regime, so this is a red herring.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Makarov

No one in this thread has suggested or advocated military intervention in Russia in order to install a more tolerant regime, so this is a red herring.

the guy I quoted said change needs to be forced, what other way are things forced other than through war?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

the guy I quoted said change needs to be forced, what other way are things forced other than through war?

Like the change Ghandi forced, or Mandela......

"Forced" does not always equal Force....Christ people need to stop jumping to conclusions.

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

the guy I quoted said change needs to be forced, what other way are things forced other than through war?

Ghandi forced change in the British powers of his time through non violence and passive resistance. Forcing change does NOT necessitate violence, and it's a weak minded group/individual that feels that violence is the only option.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

this is exactly what I am saying.

I am not against gay rights by any means, but there is a reason why such a large percentage of people in Russia are anti-gay. What that is, I don't think any of us really know, but for some reason it is something they really believe strongly in. I can't in good conscience tell them they are wrong when I do not understand why they believe so strongly in it.

Is there a reason that could possibly justify this sort of discrimination by a state against its own people? Certainly, sometimes governments are justified in infringing on certain rights (s. 1 of Canada's own Charter of Rights and Freedoms explicitly recognizes this). However, we in Canada have been discussing discrimination against gay people for decades. Have we not exhausted the field of possible justifications at this point? What benefit could Russia's anti-gay legislation plausibly achieve that could remotely justify its discriminatory and rights-infringing effects? These are sincere questions that I think you need to ask yourself.

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I think it's better to understand why, rather than just instantly trashing them as a culture. Look what happened the moment korzym12 said he didn't support gay rights, he was immediately attacked left right and center without a single person even trying to understand why he thinks like he does. The way he was treated is not that much different than the way gays are being treated in Russia to be quite frank, it was a disgusting display of bullying just because someone believed something different.

And then what happened? korzym12 fought back and even more jumped in and things got out of hand.

This strikes me as false equivalence. All opinions are not equal. Korzym's opinions on this subject deserved to be attacked.

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Societies can't change until the thinking behind it changes. So until there is an understanding of why, forcing change when such an overwhelming majority are against it will just fail miserably.

How would wearing patches on hockey jerseys be "forcing change" on anyone?

[TheyCallMeBruce]

This thread needs more puckluck and mel

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Lanny'sDaMan

Ghandi forced change in the British powers of his time through non violence and passive resistance. Forcing change does NOT necessitate violence, and it's a weak minded group/individual that feels that violence is the only option.

How long did it take Ghandi to "force" change?

Because my initial point was that it takes a while, the response to which was saying it needed to be forced. How else would you take that if you were me?

I think we are actually on the same page here.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Good point. Their moral views are less valid because they're poor.

Well not exactly, but most of the poorest and fanatical areas in the world tend to also have awful to non-existent education systems. It also seems that fanaticism breeds in areas where education is poor or non-existent (or a tool of the state). So yes, I would argue their moral views are less valid because they are less informed, but largely due to circumstances beyond their control.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

and that is why thousands of innocent people die in unneeded wars because people think they have to force chance.

also it's not the global community that wants to stop Russia, its North America and Western Europe. In fact the large majority of the world is even worse than Russia when it comes to gay rights.

"Unneeded" depends upon your point of view. If you are the comfy middle class working person in Canada, all these wars for basic human rights would seem pretty silly because hey, you already have them.

If you are the black slave in the south (in the 1800s) then you might feel that the war that ended slavery was very much needed and you and your dependents feel very strongly about how "needed" those lost lives were to end/change a horrible cultural standard.

If you are a Jew in Europe during WW2, you might think that fight was a pretty good idea over the genocide that was being performed.

A gay Indian girl in Canada has it pretty safe but if she were back in India and someone felt that she brought shame onto the family she would likely have been gang raped and murdered (although as pointed out in this thread, this culture has tried to bring these acts to Canadian soil). In this situation, I am sure that the girl being raped and murdered would rather be openly dying for her rights instead of dying a victim to her culture's backward thinking.

The gay guy in Russia who is being raped, beaten, killed, jailed, etc because he is gay would probably feel that any war that stops those actions in Russia are very much needed.

But here in Canada it sounds like a really big inconvenience and really, who are we to tell them to stop doing these things? Its their "right" to have that as their cultural norm.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

No my point is that saying:




Doesn't allow you the ability to ignore this law or the rights of LGBT in Russia. Thowing up the "things are worse in other places" defence is a cop out.

I am anit-boycott but pro display of LGBT support, ie: rainbow flags.

Good try though on your post......

I believe ABbeef was just suggesting that the majority of the world still doesn't share the moral belief that LGBT people deserve to be treated equally to straight people and that the belief in equality commonly held in Canada is not absolute. I would think that is factually accurate.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Is there a reason that could possibly justify this sort of discrimination by a state against its own people? Certainly, sometimes governments are justified in infringing on certain rights (s. 1 of Canada's own Charter of Rights and Freedoms explicitly recognizes this). However, we in Canada have been discussing discrimination against gay people for decades. Have we not exhausted the field of possible justifications at this point? What benefit could Russia's anti-gay legislation plausibly achieve that could remotely justify its discriminatory and rights-infringing effects? These are sincere questions that I think you need to ask yourself.

Like I have said repeatedly, since I am not in their shoes I have no ####ing clue. I refuse to pass judgement on a group of people without understanding what they are thinking. It's not a difficult concept, but I understand it's a foreign one since no one wants to believe that their beliefs might not be right for everyone.

Originally Posted by Makarov

This strikes me as false equivalence. All opinions are not equal. Korzym's opinions on this subject deserved to be attacked.

No one deserves to be attacked! Agree or disagree no one should be attacked over an opinion.

Originally Posted by Makarov

How would wearing patches on hockey jerseys be "forcing change" on anyone?

I never said it would. The forcing comment came from someone else who said change needs to be forced. I have also said outright I have zero issue with individuals showing their support for gay rights.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I believe ABbeef was just suggesting that the majority of the world still doesn't share the moral belief that LGBT people deserve to be treated equally to straight people and that the belief in equality commonly held in Canada is not absolute. I would think that is factually accurate.

Yet you still made that response to my post......

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

the guy I quoted said change needs to be forced, what other way are things forced other than through war?

The guy you quoted (me) also said (in the post that you quoted) that:

"Society changes when people force it to change. Whether that force is a violent revolution or a passive resistance does not matter, it still requires people to actively force the society's change to occur. If no one forces change to take place, odds are nothing will change because the other people will be actively trying to force things to stay the way they are."

Ghandi forced change, had he not forced change and waited for things to change naturally (as you suggested) then nothing would have changed.

Change seldom happens in a vacuum. It almost always requires some kind of driver to make it happen. If one person is not willing to step up and try to enact change then nothing will happen until the next person comes along and is actually willing to "fight" for their cause (or passively resist for their cause).

[Alberta_Beef]

edit

nevermind.. I am finished with this topic, you can't have an actual discussion about rights without people jumping to conclusions and blowing things out of proportion.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Well not exactly, but most of the poorest and fanatical areas in the world tend to also have awful to non-existent education systems. It also seems that fanaticism breeds in areas where education is poor or non-existent (or a tool of the state). So yes, I would argue their moral views are less valid because they are less informed, but largely due to circumstances beyond their control.

Where their moral views are based upon untrue factual beliefs about the world, I agree there's fair ground for criticizing their moral beliefs. Personally, that's how I tend to see a lot of religious beliefs. Using a hole in the ground for a bathroom or simply being poor isn't adequate for criticizing moral judgments though, which I think you agree with.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

edit

nevermind.. I am finished with this topic, you can't have an actual discussion about rights without people jumping to conclusions and blowing things out of proportion.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...n-refugee.html

Read that article. 2 weeks old. A gay Russian is seeking refuge status in Canada.

Just because you are not aware of how bad the situation is does not mean that I am blowing things out of proportion.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

edit

nevermind.. I am finished with this topic, you can't have an actual discussion about rights without people jumping to conclusions and blowing things out of proportion.

Well, you still can't explain your defence of human rights violations, so it's probably for the best.