Yup when you have a military with a set rules of engagement, a set target list and set objectives versus a force with no rules of engagement who's sole ambition is to bleed you and kill as many of you as possible in the worst way possible no matter what the cost, then you have a distinct advantage.
It was a theory originally created by General Giap in Vietnam who reached the conclusion that if you killed enough of the French they eventually wouldn't send anymore, then fought the same kind of war against the Americans. It was later perfected in Vietnam.
Getting a little OT here,
Wasn't this essentially what the Japanese tried to do in WW2 in order to keep their island footholds? Make the price to the Americans so high that they wouldn't bother to go any further? They did this by making refusing to have a direct engagement with the Americans, instead having individual cells of soldiers, making the Americans take the Island back inch by inch.
I think the first thing they should be doing is to stop building illegal settlements. That's where most of the unrest is coming from. People are having their farms & lands that have been in the family for generations bulldozed out from underneath them. The first step to any kind of peace over there has to be to stop annexing land from the Palestinians. I'm not saying that is any kind of justification for any violence, but there has to be a first step towards resolving this. From there - who knows. A solution is very far away because of the obvious trust issues on both sides. It will certainly be interesting to see how and if this gets resolved. It's a sad situation for civillians on both sides.
I agree with the whole settlements thing ^, but I'm also questioning the rationale behind everyone being mad at Israel all the time for different reasons.
The "Palestinians", and I use that term loosely, have always wanted to destroy Israel but have slowly been changing their tune over the last 40 years as to what their main beef with Israel is. First it was that they stole their land and don't have the right to exist, even though it was the British that did that and then divided the land up between the Arab sects and Jews. (notably the Jews had already bought up a majority of the land that is now Israel through private deals with Arabs before the creation of the state. Look it up...)
Then it was all about 1967 lines, and then Israel should exit out of Gaza, and now it's settlements. There's always a reason for not having peace, when peace and an independent state can be had in a relatively short amount of time if that's what you actually want. Hamas and Hezbollah are playing a waiting game for Iran to get to the point of making a Nuke so that they have more leverage...
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I don't blame the civilians, I feel quite sorry for them as they are pawns used by both Hezbollah and Hamas (and others) to achieve their PR and military goals.
I can't find the reference now, but I recall many articles during the Cast Lead operations from reputable sources that said that when Israel warned the inhabitants of particular apartment buildings that they will be attacking in 5-10 minutes and even gave warning shots for people to get out, there would be militants at the base of the building forcing people to go back in and even shooting some so that when Israel bombed that location there would be more collateral damage to be used in propaganda.
There is no easy solution for this. Israel goes seemingly out of their way to warn people to get out harms way, but the other side targets civilians as that is their only effective weapon. All they can do is generate fear in the Israeli civilian population for their political gains. There is only one word for it: "terrorism".
And Israel is not without blame. I'm sure that there have been questionable decisions at both the government level and military planning level, and even on the ground, but to say that both sides are equally to blame is preposterous.
I don't think that anyone here is saying that Israel is blameless in the process, they've been stubborn and silly, but a part of the fear on Israel's side is giving away their security, part of settlement issue is that they feel that its the only pressure point that they can apply.
Hamas doesn't negotiatie in good faith because they're not interested in negotiating in good faith. They continually break cease fires.
In truth the biggest thing that's killed any kind of negotiation is that Hamas gained power and then pushed the Fatah party out of Gaza through violence.
At least Abbas is rational.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
A bit off topic, but those that are claiming that Palestinian isn't a nationality are being highly ignorant. I myself, as well as many friends of mine are Palestinian and I can assure you we are not the same as other Arabs. Sure we all speak the same language, but every region in the Middle East has their own distinct regional culture, dialect, cuisine, national dress, etc. So much so that when I go to any other Arab country, I stand out as obviously being Palestinian the moment I start conversing with the locals. Sure, you can debate who's wrong and who's right in this whole situation, but debating whether or not the 5 million Arabs in Israel, West Bank and Gaza aren't a distinct culture is borderline racist.
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A bit off topic, but those that are claiming that Palestinian isn't a nationality are being highly ignorant. I myself, as well as many friends of mine are Palestinian and I can assure you we are not the same as other Arabs. Sure we all speak the same language, but every region in the Middle East has their own distinct regional culture, dialect, cuisine, national dress, etc. So much so that when I go to any other Arab country, I stand out as obviously being Palestinian the moment I start conversing with the locals. Sure, you can debate who's wrong and who's right in this whole situation, but debating whether or not the 5 million Arabs in Israel, West Bank and Gaza aren't a distinct culture is borderline racist.
I'm not questioning whether you identify as being Palestinian. I'm merely saying that when people say the word Palestinian they usually don't understand that not everyone in Israeli controlled territories is Palestinian. There was a state created in 1922 called Transjordan whose sole purpose was to rule over modern-day Jordan and Palestine/Israel (and to take into account Jewish settlements). Then in 1945 Jordan was recognized as a kingdom and in 1950 (after the civil/Independence War) they annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem which was condemned by the Arab Leagues.
I'm sure that over the past 70 years a unique culture and dialect has developed, but before that there is no proof that I'm aware of that Palestinians as a people have been distinctly identified as anything other than Arabs living in that area. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not questioning whether you identify as being Palestinian. I'm merely saying that when people say the word Palestinian they usually don't understand that not everyone in Israeli controlled territories is Palestinian. There was a state created in 1922 called Transjordan whose sole purpose was to rule over modern-day Jordan and Palestine/Israel (and to take into account Jewish settlements). Then in 1945 Jordan was recognized as a kingdom and in 1950 (after the civil/Independence War) they annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem which was condemned by the Arab Leagues.
I'm sure that over the past 70 years a unique culture and dialect has developed, but before that there is no proof that I'm aware of that Palestinians as a people have been distinctly identified as anything other than Arabs living in that area. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You're wrong. Every Arab inside Israeli controlled territories is Palestinian. Some outside are Palestinian as well. The Population of Palestinians inside Jordan is almost 2 million. If they were the same as Jordanians, they wouldn't be identified as a distinct nationality within Jordan. I have never been to Palestine (Israel, West Bank, Gaza), yet I have a distinct accent that's different than my Lebanese, Egyptian or Syrian friends. Clearly I developed that accent from living in Canada, but my other Arab friends didn't pick that up right? My mom makes dishes that none of my other Arab friends make, yet all my Palestinian friends know. Recently I met a girl that identified herself as Jordanian, but one look at her and I flat out called her out on it within 2 minutes of meeting her. She's Palestinian with a Jordanian citizenship.
What I'm getting at is you can't develop a unique culture or identity within 70 years. It just doesn't happen. This is one of those pieces of Zionist propaganda that pisses me off to no end. The Arabs have been there for millenia and before there were Arabs, those same people identified themselves as something else. They were all "Arabized" and converted into Islam when the Muslim armies came that way. Who were the crusaders fighting over a millenium ago? It sure wasn't Jews. Sure, everyone in the region is similar, but we are definitely different enough to be distinct.
I'm sure that over the past 70 years a unique culture and dialect has developed, but before that there is no proof that I'm aware of that Palestinians as a people have been distinctly identified as anything other than Arabs living in that area. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Recently I met a girl that identified herself as Jordanian, but one look at her and I flat out called her out on it within 2 minutes of meeting her. She's Palestinian with a Jordanian citizenship.
Honest question, is there a physical difference that you picked out or was it something else?
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
I love how you also throw the word Zionist without any kind of hate... That's also a term that is used for propaganda and inciting hate.
Yes, that's great that you have a culture but you're still Arab. I'm sure every tribe has something about themselves that they can identify from afar, and I'm sure that most Jews that have lived in exile over the past several hundred years have also developed unique traits and traditions specific to that area (see funny furry hats....)
You say they Arabs where there for Millenia, but what about the Jews/Israelites?
Honest question, is there a physical difference that you picked out or was it something else?
Yes there is a physical difference. In general, Palestinians are whiter and taller than Jordanians. They have a rounder face, their mannerisms are more "Western". Jordanians are more similar to Saudis, Palestinians are more similar to Mediterranean people of Southern Europe and Lebanon, Syria and Turkey. Her Arabic accent was also very West Bank Palestinian. Obviously there are regional differences as well, but generally speaking, most Arabs can tell where you're from just by looking at you.
I love how you also throw the word Zionist without any kind of hate... That's also a term that is used for propaganda and inciting hate.
Yes, that's great that you have a culture but you're still Arab. I'm sure every tribe has something about themselves that they can identify from afar, and I'm sure that most Jews that have lived in exile over the past several hundred years have also developed unique traits and traditions specific to that area (see funny furry hats....)
You say they Arabs where there for Millenia, but what about the Jews/Israelites?
Well when an idea comes out in the last 100 years who's sole purpose is to kick your family out of it's land and then goes on to de-humanize your people and make your culture look irrelevant am I supposed to love it?
Hey I understand that Israel is here to stay. I understand that the Jews have nowhere else to go now. The issue right now is making peace with each other, not calling out whether or not the other has a right to exist. Both nations have a right to be there and there is no way you're going to kick out 5 million Jews or 5 million Arabs into another country without committing genocide.
I think the first thing they should be doing is to stop building illegal settlements. That's where most of the unrest is coming from. People are having their farms & lands that have been in the family for generations bulldozed out from underneath them. The first step to any kind of peace over there has to be to stop annexing land from the Palestinians. I'm not saying that is any kind of justification for any violence, but there has to be a first step towards resolving this. From there - who knows. A solution is very far away because of the obvious trust issues on both sides. It will certainly be interesting to see how and if this gets resolved. It's a sad situation for civillians on both sides.
So you are really just saying that you support Hamas firing rockets into civilian areas as long as there is settlements being built?
^^ What?? I stated : "I'm not saying that is any kind of justification for any violence, but there has to be a first step towards resolving this."
So no. I don't support Hamas in firing rockets into anywhere in Israel, including the settlements. I'm just throwing out ideas for any kind of resolution. In no way am I condoning terrorism, AS my post stated.
^^ What?? I stated : "I'm not saying that is any kind of justification for any violence, but there has to be a first step towards resolving this."
So no. I don't support Hamas in firing rockets into anywhere in Israel, including the settlements. I'm just throwing out ideas for any kind of resolution. In no way am I condoning terrorism, AS my post stated.
Well you said the first step should be stopping building settlements, not stop firing rockets. The logical assumption is that you believe building settlements justifies the firing on civilians.
I think the logicial position for 'peace' is to stop all violence, and recognizing that building settlements is NOT justification for firing upon civilians.
