CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by nik-

If a business wants to fund their new facilities and charge more, that's their right.

Doing it after getting massive public handouts is a bull####.

Which is why when the Flames open the books, any sort of public hand out should be tied to a net profit % the Flames expect to make in the new arena - anything over, the City gets a kick back depending on how much over. Anything under- too bad, they got free money from the tax payers, we are not taking on risk with it as well.

And yes, Net profit with a sports team can be a funny pickle considering the owners apparently don't take money out of the team, so they would need to ensure they have the right accountants from the City organizing the deal!

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by New Era

Either of you think it is going to be different regardless of location? If you think ticket prices are going to go up with public involvement just wait of the owners have to fund the arena all on their own! You really won't like what the ticket hikes look like. It will be an event for the highest earners in Calgary.

Actually they'll probably go up the same regardless of public money or not. Without public money, however, it's much more liklely we see PSLs which will piss the season ticket holders off to no end, but at the same time they use the facility the most so contributing the most to it makes sense too.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

At this point in time, the number of busses would be roughly calculated using time to complete the route, time to load the shuttle, capacity of the shuttle, size of loading zone, etc. You want to be efficient as possible. Having a line of shuttles around the corner waiting to get into the loading zone or, conversely, having people waiting too long aren't ideal situations. Remember, it's at least 5 years away. They'll start with a system based on the calculations, then tweak (add/remove) with experience...

On one hand you have Ken King telling us this is a generational, world class facility, warning us all that we will be second fiddle without it. On the other, we are being told that the only access will be via overwhelmed light rail transit and shuttle bus....does he not realize that the notion of gouging tax payers millions and providing us with a backwoods, hick-ville transportation/access plan is entirely bush league? If they want to be as efficient as possible, shuttle buses are not the answer. This is a tactic that is used in venues that are typically overwhelmed by temporary or one off events. The organization should step up and admit that there needs to be some sort of permanent parkade constructed onsite for this to be reasonable at all.

The whole thing is just so lame duck it's embarrassing.

[Otto-matic]

https://twitter.com/CBCCalgary/statu...81539101843456

Deja vu? 35 years ago, Calgary was also locked in a debate over where to put a new arena. #TBT #CalgaryNext

Not sure how to embed twitter videos but its cool to see the initial concept for the dome.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

On one hand you have Ken King telling us this is a generational, world class facility, warning us all that we will be second fiddle without it. On the other, we are being told that the only access will be via overwhelmed light rail transit and shuttle bus....does he not realize that the notion of gouging tax payers millions and providing us with a backwoods, hick-ville transportation/access plan is entirely bush league? If they want to be as efficient as possible, shuttle buses are not the answer. This is a tactic that is used in venues that are typically overwhelmed by temporary or one off events. The organization should step up and admit that there needs to be some sort of permanent parkade constructed onsite for this to be reasonable at all.

The whole thing is just so lame duck it's embarrassing.

I'd encourage you to attend an event at Rogers Arena or BC Place. Both venues together host more events than we see in Calgary and are served by the Stadium-Chinatown station without issue. The Skytrain stop is a smaller station featuring a shorter platform than Sunalta.

I think the transportation concerns for West Village are unfounded. Especially when you consider that there is an abundance of cheap off-peak parking within walking distance in the core, and that surrounding developments will include underground parking. The City is trying to encourage alternate modes of transportation, so I doubt you will see any significant provision of parking wherever the new arena ends up.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I'd encourage you to attend an event at Rogers Arena or BC Place. Both venues together host more events than we see in Calgary and are served by the Stadium-Chinatown station without issue. The Skytrain stop is a smaller station featuring a shorter platform than Sunalta.

I think the transportation concerns for West Village are unfounded. Especially when you consider that there is an abundance of cheap off-peak parking within walking distance in the core, and that surrounding developments will include underground parking. The City is trying to encourage alternate modes of transportation, so I doubt you will see any significant provision of parking wherever the new arena ends up.

Isn't the transportation issue a bigger deal for the field house? The team of 10 year olds probably isn't taking the C train for an all day tournament. And the congestion when there is a separate event at the arena somehow needs to be addressed.

[sureLoss]

Province in talks with the polluter for West Village. Looks like the beginning of the government going after Domtar to pay for the clean up.

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...sote-polluters

Decades after a former wood preserving plant left nearly two million litres of toxic creosote on land in Calgary’s West Village, the government of Alberta has started talking to the people behind the mess.

Up until 1962, a predecessor of Domtar Corp. owned and operated the plant on a 15-hectare parcel of land where the owners of the Calgary Flames and Stampeders have recently suggested building an ambitious mega-sports complex dubbed CalgaryNEXT.

Engineers discovered the hazardous waste in the late 1980s and recent estimates have pegged remediating the land, currently occupied by a Greyhound bus station and several car dealerships, at anywhere from $50 to $140 million.

While local politicians have said the polluter should be responsible for the cleanup, officials with Alberta Environment and Parks said last year they weren’t able to pursue Montreal-based Domtar Corp. because Alberta’s environment laws don’t apply outside the province and the firm no longer had a corporate entity in the province.

It was a claim disputed by several legal experts and one the government has now done a U-turn on, though officials are remaining tight-lipped on details.

“We have initiated conversations with potential responsible parties, though we are unable to discuss the content or nature of those decisions at this time,” Jamie Hanlon, public affairs officer at Alberta Environment and Parks, said in an email.

“Until we have a definitive plan presented to us, we cannot speculate on any potential actions or outcomes and it would be inappropriate at this time to discuss the issue of remediation in any detail.”

[jayswin]

Oh good, so on top of the 2-3 years of clean up, we can now add another couple years of legal battle between the province and some company from the 60's.

Let's just pick a damn non west village location and build a really nice arena. I wouldn't be surprised if CalgaryNext is 5 years away from even having shovels in the ground, let alone the 2 - 3 years to build.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Province in talks with the polluter for West Village. Looks like the beginning of the government going after Domtar to pay for the clean up.

The first sign that CalgaryNEXT has some traction at the highest levels? Highly unlikely the Alberta government would give a rip about this situation unless there was a pressing need to get it done. Interesting development and one worth following.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Oh good, so on top of the 2-3 years of clean up, we can now add another couple years of legal battle between the province and some company from the 60's.

Let's just pick a damn non west village location and build a really nice arena. I wouldn't be surprised if CalgaryNext is 5 years away from even having shovels in the ground, let alone the 2 - 3 years to build.

This is good news all around. Most importantly it appears the actual cleanup is getting some consideration. Secondly it is also a necessity for CalgaryNEXT to happen and I don't see a problem taking 2-3 years as I don't expect CalgaryNEXT to begin in it's infancy states until the very end of this decade at the earliest.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Oh good, so on top of the 2-3 years of clean up, we can now add another couple years of legal battle between the province and some company from the 60's.

Let's just pick a damn non west village location and build a really nice arena. I wouldn't be surprised if CalgaryNext is 5 years away from even having shovels in the ground, let alone the 2 - 3 years to build.

If the province is going after Domtar and not the city, I would think it is the province on the hook for clean up costs. I am not sure that it will hold back any construction as it could be as simple as the Province seeking reimbursement from Domtar for whomever fronts the cost.

[jmac98]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I think the transportation concerns for West Village are unfounded. Especially when you consider that there is an abundance of cheap off-peak parking within walking distance in the core, and that surrounding developments will include underground parking. The City is trying to encourage alternate modes of transportation, so I doubt you will see any significant provision of parking wherever the new arena ends up.

There's an abundance of cheap off peak parking at present because there is currently no demand or reason for anyone to be there. Don't expect that to be the case when those circumstances change.

[Bingo]

I too find the parking issue overblown.

When I go to US cities to watch sports I almost always end up parking in some not-in-use at night lot that belongs to a rug store or something and then walking 6 blocks to the game. It's normal.

Hell I haven't parked inside the grounds for Flames games for years. I squeeze into one of those lots on 12th or 11th Ave.

Seems pretty normal to me.

Plus I have downtown parking on 8th and 8th so I'm set!

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by jmac98

There's an abundance of cheap off peak parking at present because there is currently no demand or reason for anyone to be there. Don't expect that to be the case when those circumstances change.

I think regardless of what there will be an abundance of stalls available. Just the heated parking run by the city account for over 3600 stalls. You could probably easily triple that figure with heated parking that are managed privately. That doesn't even account for a ton of out door lots owned by the city or operated by privately. There easily could be one parking stall per seat in the new arena if everyone chose to drive.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

If the province is going after Domtar and not the city, I would think it is the province on the hook for clean up costs. I am not sure that it will hold back any construction as it could be as simple as the Province seeking reimbursement from Domtar for whomever fronts the cost.

To me this is indicative of traction at all levels. The City would have to be involved to get the province working on this. The province won't waste the time and money if there isn't a real plan in place that could turn into an actual development. The fact that the province is pursuing this is positive and provides political high cover for all levels.

Politically this is smart. The province has the most clout with a business like Domtar and should be able to extract the costs of clean up out of them, especially if they want future licensing in the province. The City still looks like they are holding the hard line and Neshi can still do what Neshi does best. City counsel still sits in a good position with none of this sticking to them. Behind the scenes this appears to moving forward, which is good.

Originally Posted by Bingo

I too find the parking issue overblown.

When I go to US cities to watch sports I almost always end up parking in some not-in-use at night lot that belongs to a rug store or something and then walking 6 blocks to the game. It's normal.

Hell I haven't parked inside the grounds for Flames games for years. I squeeze into one of those lots on 12th or 11th Ave.

Seems pretty normal to me.

Plus I have downtown parking on 8th and 8th so I'm set!

Parking is overblown. What I heard the Flames say is they plan 2,500 surface and underground stalls. That is without dipping into the surrounding areas or private lots. As you mentioned, there are a lot of people that attend games that will have access to downtown parking where they work, so that will easy the load as well. The east villiage concept would have much greater parking and travel issues until infrastructure was built to the site. Parking usually isn't a major concern, except for those trying to generate revenue from the venues.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by New Era

The east villiage concept would have much greater parking and travel issues until infrastructure was built to the site.

Apologies for nitpicking one sentence out of many, but how would an east village arena have more parking/travel issues? It's as close to downtown parking options as the West Village (actually probably more considering the amount of City owned parking on the east side, as well as the Stampede grounds). Public transportation wise it would be within walking distance to 2 LRT lines and will have another come online most likely around the time a stadium opens. It's also within walking distance of some of the densest neighborhoods in Calgary.

An East Village/Vic Park location is about as good as one can hope for in terms of transportation options.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Apologies for nitpicking one sentence out of many, but how would an east village arena have more parking/travel issues? It's as close to downtown parking options as the West Village (actually probably more considering the amount of City owned parking on the east side, as well as the Stampede grounds). Public transportation wise it would be within walking distance to 2 LRT lines and will have another come online most likely around the time a stadium opens. It's also within walking distance of some of the densest neighborhoods in Calgary.

An East Village/Vic Park location is about as good as one can hope for in terms of transportation options.

Respectfully disagree. The proposed site in the east village is blocks from the closest LRT station and is on the wrong side of the tracks to really exploit the parking of the primary business core in downtown. There has already been discussions about the need for a tunnel into that area to facilitate the raffia flows expected. Then you are still waiting on the new LRT line to be built to service that area. It has potential, but requires even more infrastructure improvements. Seriously, can you see a major arena being serviced by 11th avenue and Olympic Way?

[Flash Walken]

So if the province is able to get demstar to pay for the cleanup then the value of that land has increased substantially and no longer needs an anchor tenant like the flames or a bloated crl.

Fantastic news for the city if Calgary if demstar winds up paying.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So if the province is able to get demstar to pay for the cleanup then the value of that land has increased substantially and no longer needs an anchor tenant like the flames or a bloated crl.

Fantastic news for the city if Calgary if demstar winds up paying.

Nice try Flash.

The only way the province gets involved is if there is already a commitment to site. They aren't going to invest time and money to force the previous owner to pay for remediation unless they have a solid proposal with money behind it to build on that site. This would still be a CoC problem without a major project ready to invest in this space, and the province is not in the business of doing the CoC any favors in that regard. 50 years of inactivity there should tell you that.

[polak]

This will never get built. Jesus just build an arena some where else and call it a day.

This is such a waste of time.