The Democratic Presidential Nomination 2020

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I have never before used the phrase “okay boomer”, but I am so tempted to with this. No, I'm sure you understand younger generations better than they do...

They aren't turning out for Bern', what else is there to understand?

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

There is nothing likeable about Bernie, he's a crotchety old man, he could just as easily be complaining about the kids in the neighbourhood playing hockey on the street as going on about healthcare.

That you might like his policies doesn't make him likeable, he seems devoid of humour or much personality

I think you're a bit naive to this. I think a lot of people like Bernie for his character as a man even more so than the actual policies. He seems to actually care and seems like a decent guy which is so rare in politics. Whether you like his policies or not it seems like his intent is to actually help people. He is far from a perfect candidate but to me is the best of the horrendous options that exist. He at least has some relatability. Some humanity. The fact that the Dems are so scared to go with him says it all to me.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I'm still not sure why anyone thinks "The Dems are stopping Bernie". Pretty sure it's the millions of fewer votes he's going to get in back to back cycles that will end up stopping him and not some conspiracy. The fact Bernie only carries the segment of the population that votes the least is his biggest problem. Relying on youth is probably the single worst strategy in politics. And America is still a more moderate and conservative country overall than other comparable Western Democracies. And if Bernie can't drive voters in a primary where the electorate is far more palatable to his ideas than the general election, how is he going to do it in the general?

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

they like the idea of change when change includes free college, its the youth version of a tax cut, it doesn't mean he is likeable, or that they will bother to show up at the polls, or that any of it will sell to the people that actually elect Governments, the over 55's

I'm finished University and paid it myself but I'd be open to the idea of providing it for the next generation. Student loans are such a massive burden on people and make it extremely difficult for young people to start their lives in an ever more difficult world. Especially in the States where it seems like such a racket. Education is an investment as well. Having more people contributing in society is a good thing. Having less people in debt is a good thing. I dont know if its neccesarily the answer or how plausible it is but to sum it up as it's only young people looking for something free is ridiculous. It's at minimum worth discussion. No one here is upset they can send their kid to K-12 for "free". I'd rather see money spent on making a better society than on fake wars. There are ripple effects as well like probably less crime, drug abuse, etc. I liked that Andrew Yang talked about measuring society in more than just GDP. Are people happier? More fulfilled? Less stressed? To me education could help with those types of things for a lot of people which all contribute to a better society which should be the role of government.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I think you're a bit naive to this. I think a lot of people like Bernie for his character as a man even more so than the actual policies. He seems to actually care and seems like a decent guy which is so rare in politics. Whether you like his policies or not it seems like his intent is to actually help people. He is far from a perfect candidate but to me is the best of the horrendous options that exist. He at least has some relatability. Some humanity. The fact that the Dems are so scared to go with him says it all to me.

You are mistaking caring and being a decent guy with being likeable, Reagan was likeable but didn't give a bolloxs, Hillary was utterly unlikeable but I never got the sense she didn't care and always seemed like a decent person.

Bernie is a left wing Clinton, devoid of campaign ability, and supported by people that cant see past 'he's for universal healthcare and free tuition' in the same way Clinton's supporters couldn't see past 'she'll be the first woman'.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I'm still not sure why anyone thinks "The Dems are stopping Bernie". Pretty sure it's the millions of fewer votes he's going to get in back to back cycles that will end up stopping him and not some conspiracy. The fact Bernie only carries the segment of the population that votes the least is his biggest problem. Relying on youth is probably the single worst strategy in politics. And America is still a more moderate and conservative country overall than other comparable Western Democracies. And if Bernie can't drive voters in a primary where the electorate is far more palatable to his ideas than the general election, how is he going to do it in the general?

Pretty well known the Democratic Party tried very hard to make Benie lose to Hilary. They actively work against him. The whole thing is a marketing campaign. Very easy to use the media to accomplish that.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I'm finished University and paid it myself but I'd be open to the idea of providing it for the next generation. Student loans are such a massive burden on people and make it extremely difficult for young people to start their lives in an ever more difficult world. Especially in the States where it seems like such a racket. Education is an investment as well. Having more people contributing in society is a good thing. Having less people in debt is a good thing. I dont know if its neccesarily the answer or how plausible it is but to sum it up as it's only young people looking for something free is ridiculous. It's at minimum worth discussion. No one here is upset they can send their kid to K-12 for "free". I'd rather see money spent on making a better society than on fake wars. There are ripple effects as well like probably less crime, drug abuse, etc. I liked that Andrew Yang talked about measuring society in more than just GDP. Are people happier? More fulfilled? Less stressed? To me education could help with those types of things for a lot of people which all contribute to a better society which should be the role of government.

Two points, we educate to Grade 12 because we need everyone to be able to read, write and do basic math for good of the economy, as a society we do not need everyone to have a degree, beyond 20% or so of vocational degree's.

What would make sense is a system where the Government funds very generously, accommodation and food as well, for bright kids to do the degrees to qualify for jobs society needs filled, we need more plumbers, that's free, we don't need Eng Lit graduates so you need to pony up for that.

Secondly free tuition doesn't help the poor to go to college as the major cost of college is living expenses not tuition, so free college only benefits the middle and upper classes who can afford to pay for the rent and food for their kids.

It is just another middle class tax grab in the end

[Magnum PEI]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

At least he knows what state Kansas City is in, Biden might slip up once in a while due to age but he's real and his team will expose Trump as the fraud he is.

I bet Trump won't even debate him on stage

Yeah Biden told this whopper on Feb 11th:
"This day, 30 years ago, Nelson Mandela walked out of prison and entered into discussions about apartheid. I had the great honor of meeting him. I had the great honor of being arrested with our U.N. ambassador on the streets of Soweto trying to get to see him on Robbens (sic) Island."

He actually never left the airport while transiting to Lesotho for a UN conference.
Apparently his geographic knowledge is lacking too, Robben island is over 1000 km from Soweto.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

You are mistaking caring and being a decent guy with being likeable, Reagan was likeable but didn't give a bolloxs, Hillary was utterly unlikeable but I never got the sense she didn't care and always seemed like a decent person.

Bernie is a left wing Clinton, devoid of campaign ability, and supported by people that cant see past 'he's for universal healthcare and free tuition' in the same way Clinton's supporters couldn't see past 'she'll be the first woman'.

I'm surprised you have such a narrow view of this. Awfully simplistic way to view millions of people. They all just fall into these categories I've created.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I'm surprised you have such a narrow view of this. Awfully simplistic way to view millions of people. They all just fall into these categories I've created.

most people are simple, they consistently vote for arseholes that make them poorer and worse off

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Two points, we educate to Grade 12 because we need everyone to be able to read, write and do basic math for good of the economy, as a society we do not need everyone to have a degree, beyond 20% or so of vocational degree's.

What would make sense is a system where the Government funds very generously, accommodation and food as well, for bright kids to do the degrees to qualify for jobs society needs filled, we need more plumbers, that's free, we don't need Eng Lit graduates so you need to pony up for that.

Secondly free tuition doesn't help the poor to go to college as the major cost of college is living expenses not tuition, so free college only benefits the middle and upper classes who can afford to pay for the rent and food for their kids.

It is just another middle class tax grab in the end

You completely missed the point but glad you have all the answers to how everything will play out and the intentions and outcomes of everyone involved. I have a sneaking suspicion you are a boomer. No offense to the boomers who have open minds.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Pretty well known the Democratic Party tried very hard to make Benie lose to Hilary. They actively work against him. The whole thing is a marketing campaign. Very easy to use the media to accomplish that.

But that still doesn't change the reality that Bernie's support has a hard cap, and that support is much lower than his supporters thing. He also isn't benefiting from having Hillary to run against this time, no doubt whatsoever in 2016 he benefited from how despised she was. Biden just isn't hated, and if anything is probably significantly more liked than Hillary. Bernie could have the media 100% behind him and it wouldn't make a difference. He's getting crushed by women and minorities, the two foundations of the Dems base. Progressives wish they were the base, but they are probably fourth or fifth in the pecking order.

[Magnum PEI]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I'm still not sure why anyone thinks "The Dems are stopping Bernie". Pretty sure it's the millions of fewer votes he's going to get in back to back cycles that will end up stopping him and not some conspiracy. The fact Bernie only carries the segment of the population that votes the least is his biggest problem. Relying on youth is probably the single worst strategy in politics. And America is still a more moderate and conservative country overall than other comparable Western Democracies. And if Bernie can't drive voters in a primary where the electorate is far more palatable to his ideas than the general election, how is he going to do it in the general?

Well Elizabeth Warren said 2016 was rigged. This time there was the shenanigans in Iowa, rule changes, long lines in California. And just watch MSNBC. Matthews compared Bernie's campaign to a Nazi invasion. They have a constant stream of Biden cheerleaders and campaigners on.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Hackey

You completely missed the point but glad you have all the answers to how everything will play out and the intentions and outcomes of everyone involved. I have a sneaking suspicion you are a boomer. No offense to the boomers who have open minds.

No I didn't miss the point, all education isn't useful for either an individual or a society, we cant house our population but we should take multi billions of dollars to send predominantly white middle class kids to take courses that wont help them or us? its an absurd notion

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

No I didn't miss the point, all education isn't useful for either an individual or a society, we cant house our population but we should take multi billions of dollars to send predominantly white middle class kids to take courses that wont help them or us? its an absurd notion

I just told you that you missed the point. I know what I'm thinking. Again you think you just decide what everyone is thinking. You're stuck on this idea that the only people voting for Bernie are middle class white kids who want free education. I just explained that I dont fall into this group yet I appreciate the idea of trying to help the general population and society as a whole. There should be more thinking like that. It's a characteristic of Bernies I appreciate and I know others do to.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

No I didn't miss the point, all education isn't useful for either an individual or a society, we cant house our population but we should take multi billions of dollars to send predominantly white middle class kids to take courses that wont help them or us? its an absurd notion

Over 80% of Americans live in major urban centers as well so not sure why you created this housing shortage crisis. Somehow they have housing from K-12 but after that its instant homelessness. I'll just add that to the long list of things you make up out of thin air.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I just told you that you missed the point. I know what I'm thinking. Again you think you just decide what everyone is thinking. You're stuck on this idea that the only people voting for Bernie are middle class white kids who want free education. I just explained that I dont fall into this group yet I appreciate the idea of trying to help the general population and society as a whole. There should be more thinking like that. It's a characteristic of Bernies I appreciate and I know others do to.

I'm not saying only middle class white kids vote for him, if the last week has taught us anything its that they aren't voting for him, I am saying free tuition doesn't help the population or society as a whole, it almost exclusively just helps the white middle class parents of white middle class kids.

Universal healthcare, while unpassable is a good idea and helps all of the US, free tuition just helps the middle class at the expense of helping the poor or elderly in other areas

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Over 80% of Americans live in major urban centers as well so not sure why you created this housing shortage crisis. Somehow they have housing from K-12 but after that its instant homelessness. I'll just add that to the long list of things you make up out of thin air.

there are 3/4 of a million homeless poor in the US through all levels of education, millions more in substandard and insecure housing, if you want a social program that is where you put the billions paying tuition for middle class kids would cost, that's my point

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Two points, we educate to Grade 12 because we need everyone to be able to read, write and do basic math for good of the economy, as a society we do not need everyone to have a degree, beyond 20% or so of vocational degree's.

What would make sense is a system where the Government funds very generously, accommodation and food as well, for bright kids to do the degrees to qualify for jobs society needs filled, we need more plumbers, that's free, we don't need Eng Lit graduates so you need to pony up for that.

Secondly free tuition doesn't help the poor to go to college as the major cost of college is living expenses not tuition, so free college only benefits the middle and upper classes who can afford to pay for the rent and food for their kids.

It is just another middle class tax grab in the end

You seem to have a poor understanding of the role of education in society.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

You seem to have a poor understanding of the role of education in society.

so do educate me, please. If we are not trying to churn out workers what the hell are we educating people for?