The New American Politics thread

[tjinaz]

I did not always agree with Lanny and he frequently "lost his $hit" on here but he was a distinctive voice. As far as Cowperson goes, he was the primary source of civility on here. He could be a thread back on track and out of the cage match with a single post. He brought up nuances no one else did. If he got banned... wow...

These threads have turned into the Rachael Maddow show. All Liberal all the time and if you don't see it just that way then you are dog piled into submission, From the same posters citing the same sources and single world view. The Daily Beast is right of this place.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Basically the only people actually not disliked in this election are the crazy ass brain surgeon, Marco Rubio, and old man socialism. I guess for Trump he's not as bad as Jeb?



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...han-voldemort/

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by jammies

Further, if you have the username "nobama", you are basing your whole internet persona on the ad hominem attack (if it's Obama, it's crap!), and you've already thrown the first firebomb in the flame war, and have little to complain about when others dismiss your arguments as noise from under a bridge.

nobamas first 5 posts were anti Obama posts. He was like Springs1. I called him nobama1 when I had to talk to him

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by jammies

I'd say the board is getting better by weeding out the contrarians and stubborn trolls. There's a difference between an opinion and having an INFORMED opinion, you learn absolutely nothing from anyone who just makes assertions with no evidence or logic to their position.

Meh an INFORMED opinion at the end of the day is still an opinion. The problem is that when you are an extremist all contrary opinions are going to be perceived by you as UNINFORMED. The board is becoming a place of extremists where if you don't tow the line you are ridiculed and attacked by the extremists that believe their idealisms are beyond reproach. It really doesn't matter how INFORMED a contrary opinion is because one side doesn't want to hear it and the mob mentality prevails.

I will never change my belief that everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether you agree with it or not or even if the opinion that is of bad taste. I see a lot of disdain and hatred in the world these days and it's prevalent here. There's a lot of hypocrisy in that individualism is encouraged only as long as it conducted within the boundaries of what is considered politically correct/acceptable however if your individuality crosses the line of being politically correct it's frowned on and ridiculed to no end. Dialogue is being stifled as people are afraid to speak up because of the fear of offending someone and the resulting backlash as we all have seen the mob mentality prevalent here at times.

It's hard not to see in your posts that you think very highly of yourself and your beliefs. Now whether I personally like your style or not I fully know and accept that you are free to speak your mind in the manner you choose. However you are no higher on the totem pole than anyone else here. You are not the smartest person here. Your opinion matters no more than anyone else here and I will never, ever agree that "weeding out contrarians" is a good thing ever in any part of a democratic society.

[CroFlames]

Hi guys. I haven't been following this thread too much since I actually hate it. But I want to add something interesting I am experiencing. I have a fairly wide variety of friends here in the USA and I have been asking their opinions on politics. As with Canadian politics, alot of people are apathetic and don't follow the politics closely enough.

People I know who are absolutely and unequivocally not racist would consider voting for trump because he "can't be bought" or "understands how the economy should run" or they perceive that he has a good stance on security, not realizing his security plan involves banning Syrians.

I find this to be a dangerous mix. Of course there are vast swaths of racists that will vote for him, but it also seems like people who are moderate, but uninformed might also be swayed by him.

His opposition really needs to highlight how much of a racist and idiot he is.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[burn_this_city]

Had to hold back the barf last night watching CNN. They actually debated the mechanics of how you would ban people of a specific religion from the US. This sequence perfectly illustrates how the media lends credence to insane ideas by trying to remain a neutral third party. The Republicans have succeeded in pulling the entire country right knowing no matter how ridiculous an idea is, it will gain traction by having its merits debated by the 24 hour news cycle.

The last few days has been pretty disappointing when you read Canadian news articles and the comments support Trump and his proposals. I really can't believe how many people have fallen for the fear mongering racism.

[Looch City]

What about the non-brown people that have converted to Islam?

The obvious solution would be for every Muslim to wear a crescent moon patch on their arm.

[J pold]

Originally Posted by Itse

Heh. None of that is particurarly strong criticism.
ISIS, maybe. The whole talk of a "weak" president is such a 'Murican talking point. It's one of the many things Russians and Americans have in common, all this worry about "looking strong".

Deteriorated relationship with China? That's pretty new to me.

Personally I'd talk more about things like
- most anti-whistleblower president in history
- drone-bombing campaign
- generally letting the military intelligence apparatus run wild

I could come up with more.

I am surprised no one mentioned the eradication of the 4th amendment despite his promise in to 2008 to reject the use of national security to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. NDAA is arguably more instructive and unconstitutional than the Patriot Act, which Obama has not revisited despite election promises. Frankly the only reason these issues are even brought up the Obama administration is because of Edward Snowden illustrated that everything Obama and others in government have promised to do or told you about domestic and international surveillance is a lie. The cosmetic reforms proposed by Obama to address these issues will give the American people greater confidence that their rights are being protected, even as intelligence and law enforcement agencies, along with the courts, continue to eviscerate those rights.

Obama is charlatan for the corporate state that America has become, who peddles “hope and change” as a commodity to be consumed like so many other worthless goods. He speaks in the classical liberal rhetoric of FDR but his words almost never match his actions. At least Bush and the Republicans are honest about their alliances to the industrial war machine and their pro-war, pro-business, anti-worker polices. Obama smiles and lies through his teeth pretending to care about democratic values, while his track records shows nothing but the opposite.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Hi guys. I haven't been following this thread too much since I actually hate it. But I want to add something interesting I am experiencing. I have a fairly wide variety of friends here in the USA and I have been asking their opinions on politics. As with Canadian politics, alot of people are apathetic and don't follow the politics closely enough.

People I know who are absolutely and unequivocally not racist would consider voting for trump because he "can't be bought" or "understands how the economy should run" or they perceive that he has a good stance on security, not realizing his security plan involves banning Syrians.

I find this to be a dangerous mix. Of course there are vast swaths of racists that will vote for him, but it also seems like people who are moderate, but uninformed might also be swayed by him.

His opposition really needs to highlight how much of a racist and idiot he is.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Sounds like Stephen Harper supporters.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Meh an INFORMED opinion at the end of the day is still an opinion.
...
However you are no higher on the totem pole than anyone else here. You are not the smartest person here. Your opinion matters no more than anyone else here and I will never, ever agree that "weeding out contrarians" is a good thing ever in any part of a democratic society.

I really can't tell if you're suggesting that no one's views should ever be challenged because no one's opinion is any better than anyone else's. That might be an even worse notion than the groupthink you're arguing against.

You seem to take the view that all opinions are equal. This is clearly wrong. An informed opinion that stands up to scrutiny and criticism is better than a poorly formed one that doesn't. Those latter opinions matter less and should be discarded when they're demonstrated to be flawed.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

People I know who are absolutely and unequivocally not racist would consider voting for trump because he "can't be bought" or "understands how the economy should run"

Which is ridiculous. He's not some self-made man who built a business from scratch... he was born wealthy and took over the family business. He's declared business bankruptcy 4 times for cryin' out loud.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Although I agree that this forum has become more loberal in the 10/15 years I have been posting/lurking here (as Calgary, in general has), its still a sports forum based largely in Calgary, Alberta. On the spectrum of mainstream Canadian politics, this forum still trends far to the right (IMO). Honestly, from my perspective, this is really clear.

The posters on this forum are mostly educated 25-45 year old males, and the political opinions here reflect that demographic. Far to the right? No, I don't see it.

On social issues, conservatism maps very strongly to age and to education. I don't see a lot of 50 year old drywallers here, or 67 year old retirees who live in rural communities. Keep in mind that a third of Canadians are still opposed to gay marriage - I'd be shocked if the number were that high for CP members.

On economics? Calgary doesn't have a lot of civil servants, union members, or people who work seasonally and rely on EI for half the year. So yeah, probably to the right of your average Canadian. But not dramatically so.

Originally Posted by jammies

The so-called left has its many faults, certainly. However, these faults are mostly of excess rather than fundamental rejection of reality. At least with people who pay lip-service to the rational, you have hope.

I don't know. The left is increasingly finding itself on the wrong side of science. Look at anti-vaxxers, the anti-GMO crowd, and the blank slate myth - all cherished beliefs in spite of the great weight of scientific data against them. When Steven Pinker published the Better Angels of Our Nature, documenting the dramatic decrease in violence over recent centuries, his fiercest critics came from the left. When your ideology is fuelled by a sense of unrelenting outrage and crisis, the last thing you want to hear about is progress, even when that progress is made clear by mountains of empirical evidence. But to recognize progress you need to recognize degrees of things and that's not the way zealots see the world.

I think the coming decades will be marked by increased friction between liberalism and the new left (which is anything but liberal). Science and empiricism will reveal things about the human condition that are anathema to the abstract doctrines and unchallenged pieties of the left, and will provoke fierce attacks. We're starting to see the breach already in academia, where liberal and tolerant academics are waking up to the monsters they've fostered in their own nest.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The problem is that when you are an extremist all contrary opinions are going to be perceived by you as UNINFORMED... I see a lot of disdain and hatred in the world these days and it's prevalent here. There's a lot of hypocrisy in that individualism is encouraged only as long as it conducted within the boundaries of what is considered politically correct/acceptable however if your individuality crosses the line of being politically correct it's frowned on and ridiculed to no end. Dialogue is being stifled as people are afraid to speak up because of the fear of offending someone and the resulting backlash as we all have seen the mob mentality prevalent here at times.

Absolutely. I'd go as far as to say we live in just as conformist times as the 1950s. We're no more tolerant of genuine dissent, and there are just as many people eager to enforce social taboos and shrilly denounce dissent as there was two generations ago. Today, we simply have different speech and beliefs that fall within the scope of acceptable expression.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You are not the smartest person here.

I think he probably is. Top 5 at least.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Which is ridiculous. He's not some self-made man who built a business from scratch... he was born wealthy and took over the family business. He's declared business bankruptcy 4 times for cryin' out loud.

I've definitely pointed things like that out to them. I don't think they were particularly pleased their Canadian friend was lecturing them on presidential candidates lol.

When you only hear tidbits here and there, and your not engaged, your information can be skewed to say the least.

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[PostandIn]

Originally Posted by T@T

Please don't try and paint him as totally positive, While I agree he got left a mess from Bush he also has made mistakes that could end up being so epic he just might go down in history as one of the worst. he got his troops out of action alright but it's now a nightmare because of the way he did it.

- Rise of ISIS is on his watch
- The Iran NUKE deal is a complete joke
- A lot of American's think he's the most anti-American president in history
- He has deteriorated any relationship with Russia and China
- His "tough talk-no action" is now a joke with world leaders

IMO, If the middle east calms down and Israel survives Iran's future bomb threats the best Obama can hope for is a memory similar to Johnson, Taft or even Coolidge as presidential favorites.

I agree with much of what Jpold just said and for me there's other things that 'the change President' could have done while he had full legislative power in both houses. 1) prosecute the dozens of criminal bankers that caused the financial meltdown because this many years removed from serial wrong doing and untold billions lost in the economy by these people NO ONE has been prosecuted. It's like white collar crime isn't even a thing unless you are a lone wolf like Madoff or someone. For that reason alone Obama will always be perceived as mostly a failure to me and, 2) he failed to direct the justice department to even investigate, let alone prosecute, Bush and Cheney (and numerous others) as the war criminals they are. Another opportunity to lead and change the way Washington is perceived squandered.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Obama is pretty much a moderate Republican overall. Certainly on defense and fiscal policy. Just shows you where the GOP base is at now that he was considered a socialist/communist/maoist/whatever-else-ends-in-ist-ist from day 1.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by troutman

I think he probably is. Top 5 at least.

Hmmm, I'd like to see this list

[CaptainCrunch]

The bottom line to me is that America has lost its leadership edge. I look at the last few presidents, and leadership wise they just don't match up or scream leadership.

I look at the GOP candidates, and I'm amazed when I think that if they had a half way decent leader that had a rational independent streak that we wouldn't be talking about Trump as anything but a crazy fringe candidate.

I look at the Democratic leadership race, and I think the field is terrible. At some point Hillary was pretty much crowned by the party, and anyone out there that is good is sitting on the sidelines because the party isn't going to get behind them, they're going to push the anointed one. And Hillary is terrible, and slimy,

What used to make America strong was that it had strong leadership aspects in its educational systems and strong leadership as part of its military training. So you got presidential that were smart, and tough, and came through the system ready made to fight for mantles.

Now instead we get platitudes and the selling of buzz phrases, and ineffectual leaders with a lack of vision.

America remains strong because it has a good military and economic structure that would take a loooong time to collapse on itself. But they've been a rudderless boat for a while now.

And Trump running as a independent Presidential Candidate is a nightmare for the GOP, a right wing split vote ensures another Democratic President.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by HockeyIlliterate

Chuck Todd had (in my view) an insightful comment this morning on Morning Joe and the Today show:

The GOP establishment will let--and perhaps want---Trump to run as an Independent, on the theory that it will bring more (nominal) Republicans to the polls. The GOP will concede the White House to the Democrats (as a function of having Trump run as an Independent), but hope that the increased turnout (for Trump as an Independent) will lead to more down-ticket votes for Republicans, allowing them to retain the House (and maybe pick up a few seats in the Senate).

Thus---the GOP won't win the Presidency, but they retain enough power to jam up the system. Plus, let's be honest--sometimes it is better to be able to just criticize something than it is to have to be responsible for something.

Maybe, but if they don't win the presidency then the populace is telling them that they agree with the democrat plan. In that case I don't think they can get away with another 4 years of doing nothing. I think the reason they might like Trump to run as independent is not because it gets people out to vote but rather it gets the Tea Party out of their party so they are free to move back to the center. Which may get those guys back into the republican fold but I don't know if that will happen in the same election.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The bottom line to me is that America has lost its leadership edge. I look at the last few presidents, and leadership wise they just don't match up or scream leadership.

Just wondering what you think they should do, to regain their respectability and leadership militarily wise?