Israel declares war on Hamas

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Genocide - the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

Gaza's government official goal is to destroy the nation of Israel. So Gaza is doing the genocide. They are killing Jews just because they are Jews with the aim to destroy the whole state of Jews.

[carmenshoes]

It is important to understand the broader context of the conflict and it is important to acknowledge the history of Israel-Palestine relations.

It is not so called "what aboutism" to assert the media's bias when handling attacks from Hamas on Israeli civilians vs when the IDF attacks Palestinian civilians.

When Israel kills Palestinian women and children it is just "business as usual" but when Hamas comes and kills Israeli civilians it is a "terrorist attack" and treated as a great tragedy by the media and western governments (which it of course is).

Whether people care to admit it or not, or if they're even aware of their own double standards, they place a much higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian lives.

[Pointman]

Never seen an explosion like this being caused by a rocket. There are many videos of rocket impacts from other attacks, and I didn't see any with explosion even remotely this large. Based on what about hospital attack is known at this point - which is not much at all I admit - it seems like an explosion of something, that was already in the hospital. Firearms, fuel, whatever. This explosion may have been triggered by a rocket, but also may have occured without any rockets at all.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by carmenshoes

It is important to understand the broader context of the conflict and it is important to acknowledge the history of Israel-Palestine relations.

It is not so called "what aboutism" to assert the media's bias when handling attacks from Hamas on Israeli civilians vs when the IDF attacks Palestinian civilians.

When Israel kills Palestinian women and children it is just "business as usual" but when Hamas comes and kills Israeli civilians it is a "terrorist attack" and treated as a great tragedy by the media and western governments (which it of course is).

Whether people care to admit it or not, or if they're even aware of their own double standards, they place a much higher value on Israeli lives than Palestinian lives.

…aaand we’re back to square one of failing to recognize any moral distinction between deliberately targeting civilians with the intent of killing as many of them as possible, and killing civilians in the pursuit of military objectives after taking measures to reduce the number of casualties.

The fact is if Hamas leadership had a button that would kill 10,000 Israeli just for the sake of killing them, they’d press that button until every Israeli were dead. If Israel’s leadership had a mirror button, they would not press it once.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Let me introduce you to gravity's best friend, terminal velocity, or free fall of an object. You may want to double check those youtube videos, because they go up way faster than they come down, especially after interception and being turned into shrapnel.

Normally that's true, but it is plausible that if the rocket failed that the warhead was propelled downwards either by an explosion or the trajectory being altered as it broke apart.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s not for sale. This “millions of posts” and “demonstrations” nonsense about Israel being unfairly demonized isn’t much better than pro-Israel propaganda. The Israel government certainly gets better treatment than Palestinian civilians.

Pro-Israel people in this thread have said terrible things about innocent Palestinians and even about other posters in this thread. You don’t even have to go looking for it. But you ignore it and cheer it on while pretending the other side is the only one unfairly demonized and reducing the valid concerns of people to some pro-terror attack on Israel. It’s more than a bit ridiculous.

Oh man there is more spin here than a 78 RPM record. On the contrary the pro-Israel posters in this thread in the face of unspeakable and unimaginable war crimes committed against innocent Jews have gone out of their way to separate Hamas from Palestinians generally and when in the heat of the moment something inappropriate has been said have quickly owned and corrected the statement.

The hate and vitriol spewed at demonstrations around the world and on-line, including chants of "gas the Jews" in Sydney following the October 7 attacks, even before any material response from Israel, is disgusting and now things are only going to get much much worse. There are frenzied demonstrations going on right now in Tehran, Baghdad, Beirut and Cairo.

Consider this tweet from Rashida Tlaib notwithstanding the lack of conclusive evidence of the cause of the explosions at the hospital:

"Israel just bombed the Baptist Hospital killing 500 Palestinians (doctors, children, patients) just like that.

@POTUS
this is what happens when you refuse to facilitate a ceasefire & help de-escalate.

Your war and destruction only approach has opened my eyes and many Palestinian Americans and Muslims Americans like me. We will remember where you stood."

https://twitter.com/rashidatlaib/sta...42122185191596

Now consider how things are being whipped up in the Arab Street by the Arab media, propaganda machines and politicians. If Israel wasn't the embodiment of all evil in the world before, it is now.

Meanwhile Hamas leaders are on the floor of their underground bunkers laughing uncontrollably while they count their lottery winnings that just keep coming.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Normally that's true, but it is plausible that if the rocket failed that the warhead was propelled downwards either by an explosion or the trajectory being altered as it broke apart.

It's plausible. What is less plausible is such a large explosion being caused by a rocket. Can anyone produce a video of some other rocket attack that results in an explosion of similar magnitude?

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Never seen an explosion like this being caused by a rocket. There are many videos of rocket impacts from other attacks, and I didn't see any with explosion even remotely this large. Based on what about hospital attack is known at this point - which is not much at all I admit - it seems like an explosion of something, that was already in the hospital. Firearms, fuel, whatever. This explosion may have been triggered by a rocket, but also may have occured without any rockets at all.

Agreed, looks like someone was building bombs and screwed up royally.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by blankall

Except that it's a well known fact that at least 15% of the rockets launched out of the Gaza Strip fall short and land in Gaza. And we've got a video supposedly showing the rocket being intercepted and falling into the hospital.

It would be similar to 9/11 videos, if instead of a video of planes hitting the twin towers, you had a video a group of F-14 launching missiles at them.

What this does remind me of is every media report about Israel/Palestine where people immediately jump to the conclusion that paints Israel in the worst possible light.

I more meant how soon we'll be talking about melting points of steel, the specific energy capacity of a fully fuelled Hamas rocket etc. I didn't state a position saying there is no way this is a Hamas rocket. We really don't know, so waiting for the facts is likely best.

[Manhattanboy]

Or as someone else said:

I have one rule. It’s a simple rule but one that has always served me well:

Don’t be quick to believe terrorist organizations that rape women, behead babies and set fire to the elderly.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Or as someone else said:

I have one rule. It’s a simple rule but one that has always served me well:

Don’t be quick to believe terrorist organizations that rape women, behead babies and set fire to the elderly.

Some people seem to have a REALLY hard time with doing that.

The 500 killed is complete BS as well, like every thing else that comes out from Hamas. That was obvious the moment this story broke, you cannot verify that many deaths in that short amount of time but people still believed it. Careless reporting creating the exact situation Hamas wants.

[FlamesAddiction]

The explosion and fire did seem excessive compared to other rockets. Even missiles and bombs dropped by Israel don't seem to create that much fire. Most of the damage seems to come from the shockwaves and concussive effects.

If it was one of the longer range Hamas rockets just starting its 160 km journey as some suggest, would it have enough fuel to create a fireball like that? Also, would the hospital have bulk storage of flammable gases that may have contributed?

The video evidence makes me lean towards a malfunctioning rocket fired from within Gaza. A lot of rockets were just fired from relatively close to the hospital and one of the them does seem to malfunction just before the explosion.

[Pointman]

Here's the result of the direct hit of Gaza rocket into a house in Jerusalem (and some other hits). Look at the impact. Nothing even remotely close to blowing up the whole building.


https://news.israelinfo.co.il/amp/111099

https://news.israelinfo.co.il/amp/94773

https://www.ashdodinfo.co.il/ashdod/...4%D0%BE%D0%BC/

[Pointman]

Is there any evidence of destruction of the hospital building? All I see is burned cars on the parking lot, which does not add up to 500+ killed.

[Bagor]

If you keep going you might be able to convince yourself there were zero casualties and a couple of damaged cars.

You're getting there.

[combustiblefuel]

MOD EDIT: Removed insulting post.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Oh man there is more spin here than a 78 RPM record. On the contrary the pro-Israel posters in this thread in the face of unspeakable and unimaginable war crimes committed against innocent Jews have gone out of their way to separate Hamas from Palestinians generally and when in the heat of the moment something inappropriate has been said have quickly owned and corrected the statement.

And then repeated those statements multiple times after. But you guys want to go around calling innocent people animals, terrorist supporters, wishing death on them, etc, go ahead. Just don’t act grief-stricken when people point it out.

You recognize that the Israeli government has done a lot to earn any reputation it has, I hope. You can’t spend years indiscriminately bombing civilians, committing war crimes, committing apartheid, etc and expect everyone is just going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it’s time take some ownership for that reputation? Because as much as you want to scream “anti-semite” at anyone that criticizes Israel, there’s a lot of fair criticism to dole out.

“Better than terrorists” is an extremely low bar.

[Pointman]

There's no damage except that to the parking lot, as per video evidence from Gaza. How can this lead to alleged 500 deaths is not clear

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/s...35687070916987

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Bagor

If you keep going you might be able to convince yourself there were zero casualties and a couple of damaged cars.

You're getting there.

There's much more evidence for this, than to the contrary.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And then repeated those statements multiple times after. But you guys want to go around calling innocent people animals, terrorist supporters, wishing death on them, etc, go ahead. Just don’t act grief-stricken when people point it out.

You recognize that the Israeli government has done a lot to earn any reputation it has, I hope. You can’t spend years indiscriminately bombing civilians, committing war crimes, committing apartheid, etc and expect everyone is just going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it’s time take some ownership for that reputation? Because as much as you want to scream “anti-semite” at anyone that criticizes Israel, there’s a lot of fair criticism to dole out.

“Better than terrorists” is an extremely low bar.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel simply because it exists. While Israel does build illegal settlements and commit some, even if mutual, atrocities, the point still stands: even if Israel did nothing wrong at all, Hamas would still try to destroy it.