Atheist sees image of Big Bang in piece of toast

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by evman150

The first (believing in the Christian God, or not being sure) is clearly ignorant and can be dismissed out of hand by people with an ounce of critical thought in their brains.

I've met a few people in my day with considerably more formal education than either you or I (I'm thinking of some professors I've had) have and they believed in a Christian god.

A person doesn't get a PhD in European history from Oxford, for example, if he is ignorant and doesn't have an ounce of critical thought in his brain.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I've met a few people in my day with considerably more formal education than either you or I (I'm thinking of some professors I've had) have and they believed in a Christian god.

A person doesn't get a PhD in European history from Oxford, for example, if he is ignorant and doesn't have an ounce of critical thought in his brain.

The thing is people with such top notch educations often seperate logic/rationality when it comes to religion and often try to rationalize and find reasons to justify it to their own well educated minds.

People who believe or don't believe find their own reasons to validate their own beliefs, even people with PhD's.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I've met a few people in my day with considerably more formal education than either you or I (I'm thinking of some professors I've had) have and they believed in a Christian god.

A person doesn't get a PhD in European history from Oxford, for example, if he is ignorant and doesn't have an ounce of critical thought in his brain.

And some really (otherwise) intelligent people are degenerate gamblers.

Do you see how this is a poor argument?

And no, it has nothing to do with an addiction. I am not calling religion a "disease" (though some would beg to differ). That is not the direction I'm going with this.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by evman150

And some really (otherwise) intelligent people are degenerate gamblers.

Do you see how this is a poor argument?

And no, it has nothing to do with an addiction. I am not calling religion a "disease" (though some would beg to differ). That is not the direction I'm going with this.

The point is that someone can't be both a well-educated and intelligent person while at the same time be completely unable to think critically, which is what you did suggest.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The point is that someone can't be both a well-educated and intelligent person while at the same time be completely unable to think critically, which is what you did suggest.

Intelligent people can just have a strong denial complex, which is a sufficient condition for both gambling degeneracy and belief in standard religious doctrine.

Edit: I would argue we are arguing about statistical outliers. My previous statement applies to a very good portion of society. Arguing about fringe cases seems a little silly, although I am not dismissing it.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The point is that someone can't be both a well-educated and intelligent person while at the same time be completely unable to think critically, which is what you did suggest.

Really? Im sure there have been a few well educated people who have fallen into the Cocaine trap....isnt that an inability to think out the situation critically? There are so many of these variables, including alcoholism, and Rubber fetishes, it makes the mind spin...or wait...thats just me anyways!
How about this...educated people were raised in a highly religious environment...or married into one. They were indoctrinated so to speak. Would that work?

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The point is that someone can't be both a well-educated and intelligent person while at the same time be completely unable to think critically, which is what you did suggest.

You would think, but that isnt true....at least based on my experience, alot of people who would considered genious..managed to kill themselves...that is not thinking critically

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Really? Im sure there have been a few well educated people who have fallen into the Cocaine trap....isnt that an inability to think out the situation critically? There are so many of these variables, including alcoholism, and Rubber fetishes, it makes the mind spin...or wait...thats just me anyways!
How about this...educated people were raised in a highly religious environment...or married into one. They were indoctrinated so to speak. Would that work?

My comments were directed specifically at evman's.

The way I read it, it sounded to me like people who believe in a Christian version of God are dumb. I don't know if that's what he meant or not, but this is what he said:

The first (believing in the Christian God, or not being sure) is clearly ignorant and can be dismissed out of hand by people with an ounce of critical thought in their brains."

I'd say a person without an ounce of critical thought in their head is dumb. There are people who believe in a Christian god that aren't dumb. I think he also said it's some sort of a statistical anomaly, but I don't buy that either.

Certainly there are dumb Christians but that doesn't mean they are all dumb. Many Christian people do have an ounce of critical thought in their brains and haven't dismissed it out of hand. You can say they are brainwashed, indoctrinated, faking it... whatever. They can still have thought about it critically. They just came to a different conclusion than apparently he, you or I did. How they got to that conclusion is just as bizarre to me as it is to you but...

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Really? Im sure there have been a few well educated people who have fallen into the Cocaine trap....isnt that an inability to think out the situation critically? There are so many of these variables, including alcoholism, and Rubber fetishes, it makes the mind spin...or wait...thats just me anyways!
How about this...educated people were raised in a highly religious environment...or married into one. They were indoctrinated so to speak. Would that work?

If I've been indoctrinated, according to you, that would mean I'm still unable to think critically. If you were thinking critically, you'd realize that. However, I CAN critically think, and I HAVE come to the conclusion that there is a Christian God.

But in the unlikely event that there isn't a God, I'll have the satisfaction of knowing I lived my life to the fullest and was a good human as I die.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by FireFly

But in the unlikely event that there isn't a God, I'll have the satisfaction of knowing I lived my life to the fullest and was a good human as I die.

But what about the earthly satisfaction that only hookers and blow can bring you?

[photon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Many Christian people do have an ounce of critical thought in their brains and haven't dismissed it out of hand. You can say they are brainwashed, indoctrinated, faking it... whatever. They can still have thought about it critically. They just came to a different conclusion than apparently he, you or I did. How they got to that conclusion is just as bizarre to me as it is to you but...

I think that bolded one is important... What's the #1 thing that will determine if you believe in God, and if you believe in God what God you will believe in?

The #1 factor?

It's not intelligence, income, the strength of the holy writing, or anything like that. It's location. Where are you born, where are you raised. That by a huge margin is the determining factor as to what religion you are going to turn out as. I think that says something pretty powerful.

I think many of the "religious experiences" that people have and the decision process they use in their own minds to justify their beliefs (or ease the cognitive dissonance) aren't a factor of being dumb, just a factor of being human and all the weakness and succeptability that entails.

[flamey_mcflame]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

My comments were directed specifically at evman's.

The way I read it, it sounded to me like people who believe in a Christian version of God are dumb. I don't know if that's what he meant or not, but this is what he said:

The first (believing in the Christian God, or not being sure) is clearly ignorant and can be dismissed out of hand by people with an ounce of critical thought in their brains."

I'd say a person without an ounce of critical thought in their head is dumb. There are people who believe in a Christian god that aren't dumb. I think he also said it's some sort of a statistical anomaly, but I don't buy that either.

Certainly there are dumb Christians but that doesn't mean they are all dumb. Many Christian people do have an ounce of critical thought in their brains and haven't dismissed it out of hand. You can say they are brainwashed, indoctrinated, faking it... whatever. They can still have thought about it critically. They just came to a different conclusion than apparently he, you or I did. How they got to that conclusion is just as bizarre to me as it is to you but...

I think sometimes people truly forget the power of authority when it comes to shaping one's mind. Smart rational and critical thinkers can be influenced into believe and doing extraordinary things. See Germany 1939-1944 for the power of authority.

Also, don't forget the strong need for people to feel like they are special. Everybody wants their life to have a meaning or purpose. They want to believe the their actions on Earth have an end consequence. Bad people should be punished, good people should be rewarded. Unfortunately, that does not work in the animal kingdom. Nature rewards whatever creature adapts best its environs. Good or bad.

Lastly, of course, indoctrination has a huge impact on how we process the world. It isn't a coincidence that most people born in Canada and the U.S. tend to believe in Christianity, most people born in Iraq believe in Islam, and most people born in India believe in Hinduism and Sikhism, etc. People are shaped and conditioned from the day they were born to believe in certain "truths".Almost all religions were formed for control and power, prior to the rule of law. This indoctrination at an early age helps to establish and maintain the power of the church and religion in the mindset of an individual.

Personally, I dont get the whole spiritual and religious aspect when you have science, nature, biology and genetics that contradicts almost all conventional and mainstream religious story-telling. I'll live my life ethically and let facts and testable theories dictate my understanding of the universe.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by driveway

But what about the earthly satisfaction that only hookers and blow can bring you?

Mmmm... hookers and blow. Dude, I'm about the worst Christian you've ever met. Seriously. It's ridiculous what a bad Christian I am and really I should be ashamed of myself.

[photon]

Lol, today's xkcd's is strangely topical... Must be a sign.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by photon

Lol, today's xkcd's is strangely topical... Must be a sign.

HAHAHAHAH!!!!



SO much truth to that.

[FireFly]

Ah Lanny. You thought you'd get away from me, didn't you?

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

You defended the "institute" or do you already forget that? Here' let me refresh your memory.

"Don't institutes usually research? Perhaps there's an institute for research on the big bang? I'm sure if there isn't a whole institute on it, there's a lot of scientists who research it anyway..."

That's not really a defense. I pretty much admitted that I didn't know because I did in fact ask if they research...

[quote]I also did NOT bring this group up, CalgaryBornAgain did when he injected this link into the discussion.

http://www.icr.org/article/343/

All I did was provide some context for the article and its source. You can't apply critical thought without understanding the source of the information.[quote]

Or perhaps I understand exactly where it's coming from and choose to ignore it? The only time I pay attention to this stuff is in threads like this. My world just doesn't revolve around "spreading the truth" like you'd accuse more believers, so I don't pay attention to the idiots. You should try it. Try having a discussion about religion with someone who isn't a tool, you'll find it much harder to argue against.

You say my definition of creation too narrow? Using the proper terminology prevents confusion. Using the term "creation", a well known term in religious doctrine, to identify the moment when "our" universe began would cause confusion. It would also not be correct, as we do not know if this was indeed the moment of the "creation" of "our" universe, or but just another cycle in the natural flow of this entity. In fact, Creation Science, a term coined by the by creationists to make their "research" sound more respectable, was created (pardon the pun) with the intention of obfuscating science in general. Creation is just incorrect terminology, and using it is not different than using it makes no sense in the context of the discussion.

So what would you call it if it's helped along by God? In such a theory, obviously He's the catalyst to the beginning of the universe. Wouldn't that still be creation? Ignore "Creation Theory" for a moment. If it's not the earth in 6 days, but still created by God, what would you call it?

Deflecting what perchance? That I am spiritual, but not religious? No deflection of that at all. I have admitted it. Seems you're the one with the deflection issue.

Deflecting your hypocrisy. Didn't I wade into this thread to point out something stupid you said? Isn't it still stupid?

First you incorrectly identified me as the one who injected the ICR document into the fray. Then you've changed your position on the ICR in general, pulling a Hillary, saying you were for the ICR, then against, then trying to not associate yourself with it at all. Now, to your terminology and how you decide to frame issues, if you're going to try and engage in an intellectual debate on a given topic you must use the proper lexicon. You can make your point by using the correct language, so as not to inject confusion into the discourse.

I'll admit I'm an idiot and didn't read the thread. Thought I did already actually... Pulling a Hillary... lol. Nice sexist comment. Typical male.

As for the terminology, you make it up. What do you call it?

You can be what ever you want to be. It's really no concern of mine. I was just making a very salient point about religiosity and spirituality, and the divergent paths the two concepts have begin to travel in our culture. You may disagree that religiosity and spirituality are moving away from each other, but all you need to do to prove this ideal is examine Christianity in the United States and the many contradictions that exist in the "Christian" beliefs.

I'm not saying they aren't moving apart, I'm saying in some cases that isn't a good thing. There needs to be more critical thinking Christians in this world. Just like there needs to be more critical thinking agnostics. Open your eyes and pick a side but don't fence sit.

As to your comments about "openness" not being related to an individual's beliefs, where do you think the ability to be openness resides? It is based on an individual's beliefs and whether the concepts challenge the individual's ideal of truth. In the Platonic sense, knowledge is a direct intersection of truth and belief, which is what makes us open to greater understanding. Your failure to understand this doesn't make you dumb, as you suggest my position is, it just means you lack exposure or education in this regard.

Um, no. In this case I bet that science would eventually be able to tell you whether you'd be "open" as a person or not. I think it's partially genetic and while openness is something that can be nourished or starved as a child depending on beliefs, that doesn't explain everything. About two years ago this 10 year old kid was reported as saying after two weeks of being beaten and locked in a closet, "It's not my fault that he didn't love me. It just wasn't in him." A 10 year old kid. You know what that tells me? Either he's a psycho and he's already planning on death, or he's a kid that understands even without love that such a thing exists. That's open.

The fact that you think I've ever called you dumb, and the fact that you're now calling me dumb, actually just tells me you're rather immature for an old guy, Lanny. I called you a hypocrite. If you don't know the difference...

[Dion]

Originally Posted by photon

Lol, today's xkcd's is strangely topical... Must be a sign.

Gold! That IMO seems to summerise the debates on this thread. Everyone telling the other person that they're worng

[Flameschick]

Originally Posted by Dion

Gold! That IMO seems to summerise the debates on this thread. Everyone telling the other person that they're worng

You spelt "wrong" wrong ...

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Flameschick

You spelt "wrong" wrong ...

Smart aleck

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by flamey_mcflame

I think sometimes people truly forget the power of authority when it comes to shaping one's mind. Smart rational and critical thinkers can be influenced into believe and doing extraordinary things. See Germany 1939-1944 for the power of authority.

Also, don't forget the strong need for people to feel like they are special. Everybody wants their life to have a meaning or purpose. They want to believe the their actions on Earth have an end consequence. Bad people should be punished, good people should be rewarded. Unfortunately, that does not work in the animal kingdom. Nature rewards whatever creature adapts best its environs. Good or bad.

Lastly, of course, indoctrination has a huge impact on how we process the world. It isn't a coincidence that most people born in Canada and the U.S. tend to believe in Christianity, most people born in Iraq believe in Islam, and most people born in India believe in Hinduism and Sikhism, etc. People are shaped and conditioned from the day they were born to believe in certain "truths".Almost all religions were formed for control and power, prior to the rule of law. This indoctrination at an early age helps to establish and maintain the power of the church and religion in the mindset of an individual.

Personally, I dont get the whole spiritual and religious aspect when you have science, nature, biology and genetics that contradicts almost all conventional and mainstream religious story-telling. I'll live my life ethically and let facts and testable theories dictate my understanding of the universe.

I agree indoctrination as children is a huge part of our lives and how we look at everything including religion. Some of us are unknowing victims of this and others know and get angry. For those who don't see this, if or when this peace or love or vibration or god enters their life, they dismiss it as it doesn't fit the preconceived notions of what god is. The ones who become angry miss it also as their anger blinds them.One way I look at my god is freedom from these indoctrinations. Freedom to be in the moment and it doesn't have much to do with right or wrong, good or bad, crime and punishment, kindness and reward. Besides these ideas being used for power they are also used to keep order in our society and that's mostly what the Bible is about, not about god.
Everybody desires real peace and real freedom not the peace or freedom that's brought to you, but the peace that is inside. This is the reality.