Official 07/08 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by VANFLAMESFAN

Im thinking because there's 2 reasons. One, when they use shootouts, something huge is on the line, not like a regular season game. Two, because the shooter is expected to score, so there is the anticipation of a goat coming out. I dunno, that's my take.

Yes, they are exciting, but they are ridiculously cruel and an awful way to settle a game. I would totally be in favor of them playing a replay match like they used to do and like they still do in certain cups. Unfortunately, logistically, that is not possible.

It would be just as cruel to decide TWO matches by a 10 minute penalty shootout like in the FA CUP (210 minutes of play decided by a shootout). I might be in the minority but I love shootouts in soccer! There is no other solution.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It would be just as cruel to decide TWO matches by a 10 minute penalty shootout like in the FA CUP (210 minutes of play decided by a shootout). I might be in the minority but I love shootouts in soccer! There is no other solution.

I have only a very passing interest in football as such. When the World Cup or the Euros are on, I watch. Other than that... not so much.

It's intriguing as a hockey fan to see how in one sport where the culture supports a shoot out to decide a deadlock it can be accepted.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by fredr123

I have only a very passing interest in football as such. When the World Cup or the Euros are on, I watch. Other than that... not so much.

It's intriguing as a hockey fan to see how in one sport where the culture supports a shoot out to decide a deadlock it can be accepted.

Because there is no other way. It's been this way since the 70s. Before that matches tied after extra time were decided by a coin toss! So a shootout is much better.

It all stems from history and what you are used to. You can go from a coin toss to a shootout but you can't go from sudden-death unlimited overtime to a shootout.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by united

It's sport, the only goal is to win. My team did accomplish something special by being the most consistent club team in the toughest league in the world as well as winning the tournament made up of the best club teams from around the world. That alone is a huge accomplishment to me. Not to mention doing so while spending less money than a few other teams, and fielding a relatively young squad.

If my team wasn't doing everything within their power to win I would be very dissapointed. Even if it means spending money given to them. For that I am greatful to have a competent manager like Sir Alex. Like Jofillips said, look at this record with Aberdeen in the early to mid 80's.

I appreciate what you are saying, but there is no suspense. How can you appreciate a "win" if there was little real competition? The playing field in not close to even in the domestic leagues. It's like an adult beating a 5 year old at chess.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by troutman

I appreciate what you are saying, but there is no suspense. How can you appreciate a "win" if there was little real competition? The playing field in not close to even in the domestic leagues. It's like an adult beating a 5 year old at chess.

It's been like that 100 years. I find it 'romantic' to have big teams and little teams. This is actually why the FA Cup is special. When Barnsley beats Liverpool AND Chelsea in a span of 2 weeks. It wouldn't be as special if the playing field was close.

One of my managers at work is from Stoke and he's really excited that Stoke City is in the Premier League and will enjoy next season even though he says they're going straight back down!

Cheering for a team at the bottom can be agonizingly fun too. To watch week by week and scratch out each point for survival. And once in awhile beat one of the big boys!

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It's been like that 100 years. I find it 'romantic' to have big teams and little teams. This is actually why the FA Cup is special. When Barnsley beats Liverpool AND Chelsea in a span of 2 weeks. It wouldn't be as special if the playing field was close.

One of my managers at work is from Stoke and he's really excited that Stoke City is in the Premier League and will enjoy next season even though he says they're going straight back down!

Cheering for a team at the bottom can be agonizingly fun too. To watch week by week and scratch out each point for survival. And once in awhile beat one of the big boys!

Yeah, that was the Calgary Flames fan experience circa 1997-2003. I'm sure everyone on this board would love to experience that again because it's 'romantic' to watch the big teams win every year and maybe just maybe if we're lucky catch them when they're resting some of their regulars and scratch out a point.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Yeah, that was the Calgary Flames fan experience circa 1997-2003. I'm sure everyone on this board would love to experience that again because it's 'romantic' to watch the big teams win every year and maybe just maybe if we're lucky catch them when they're resting some of their regulars and scratch out a point.

That's what made 2004 special. Even if Calgary goes on and wins the whole thing in the next year or so, I don't think it'll ever match that series win against Detroit because of the reason you stated. Detroit always won.

Why do you think Peter Maher went bonkers when Gelinas scored?
It was special!

[troutman]

Just curious; has there ever been an organized fan movement in England (or other European countires) to level the playing field? I think the fans have the power, but they seem resigned to the way it is.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by troutman

Just curious; has there ever been an organized fan movement in England (or other European countires) to level the playing field? I think the fans have the power, but they seem resigned to the way it is.

This may sound weird but I think the fans like it that way. They cheer for multiple teams. Back to my manager at work, he cheers for ManU as the big club (out of the big 4).. Southampton for a middle club (cause they're on the south coast) ,Stoke as his local club and some other even smaller club who's name I can't remember. But now that Stoke is in the Premiership, they're actually gone ahead of Southampton for the first time in about 50 years!

And they LOVE their promotion/relegation system so there's no point leveling the playing field. My manager says that North American sports make no sense cause there no relegation.

[Thunderball]

I think most Europeans prefer this "unfair" way a lot more than an even playing field... and here's why.

1. Most elite teams became elite over DECADES of being managed well, and winning leagues and tournaments. To be Real Madrid, Manchester United, Juventus, Bayern Munich, you had to be a winner, take risks financially and hire the best and fire the chaff. Yes, there's the odd Chelsea, but you still can't buy a winner and expect to take it all. Toronto and the Rangers taught us that at the NHL level.

2. The UEFA Cup and Champions' League are huge sources of revenue. Small teams make these tournaments, and as a result, continue to grow. Case in point, Zenit St. Petersburg, this year's UEFA cup champions. Who even heard of them before this season, and who would think their unimpressive sounding roster could be at the top of the heap with teams like Bayern Munich, Glasgow Rangers, Fiorentina, PSV Eindhoven, and Atletico Madrid. Even small teams in England, Spain and Italy have been known to sneak into these tournaments, and as a result, become richer and better teams. That makes football special. The system doesn't cripple the best and coddle the worst, it encourages the top to rise. Little Chievo Verona rose from Serie C2 to Serie A and to play in the UEFA cup...and now they're back in Serie A again next season.

3. Relegation is as interesting a battle as championship. Every year, long term names get knocked out because they got complacent, cheap, or shocked. In Italy, Serie A regular, and 1995 UEFA Cup Champions Parma got knocked to Serie B (and even they got knocked to Serie B a few years ago). Every single major team in Italy has spent at least one season in Serie B, except Inter Milan (albeit a couple artificially... financial insolvency, suspicion of sporting misconduct, etc.)

4. Miracles happen. A lot. Especially in the Cups. Which is why a lot of big teams downplay their importance, because on any given day, if one team works hard enough and catches the other offguard, any Division 1 team can beat any Division 1 team. Even Division 2 teams can do it.

If the NHL had the same system as European Football, the Calgary Flames could not have "treated" us fans with just pathetic teams, coaches and managers in the 1990s and early 2000s... the team would simply no longer exist or would be a permanent resident of a second division (hell, the team almost got knocked into oblivion in the old NHL system too). Hungrier teams would have emerged and pushed the team down. Okay is definitely not okay in European football, or you lose... big time. Just ask Leeds Utd.

With that... there is some push in Italy, and other nations, to try and distribute the TV money a little more evenly. But they have come up to the big stumbling block... Domestic and International TV viewers don't want to see Catania v. Empoli... they want Juventus, AC Milan, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Fiorentina, Sampdoria and Napoli. Without those teams getting the most exposure, the big money offers simply won't materialize.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by troutman

Just curious; has there ever been an organized fan movement in England (or other European countires) to level the playing field? I think the fans have the power, but they seem resigned to the way it is.

Its been discussed, but its actually against European Union Law to institute a salary cap.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Locke

Its been discussed, but its actually against European Union Law to institute a salary cap.

It's probably illegal in North America too, but ownership and players have agreed it is best for the sport to have a cap in the NFL, NHL and NBA. The other way to do it is revenue sharing.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by troutman

It's probably illegal in North America too, but ownership and players have agreed it is best for the sport to have a cap in the NFL, NHL and NBA. The other way to do it is revenue sharing.

And MLS.

But I didnt think you could contractually circumvent the law.

[jofillips]

Relegation is sadistically enjoyable for most footie fans, so much at stake and makes it worth teams playing at their full all the time.

On troutmans comments - i think the problem is that there are many, many teams (ie loyalties) all competing against one another, thus stopping cooperation.
Thinking of the 'bigger picture' (something the NHL is very good at) in my opinion has only been thought about seriously in the last 5 years.

But what can fans do? They can't boycott their own team as that'll only damage themselves.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by jofillips

But what can fans do? They can't boycott their own team as that'll only damage themselves.

This is very unlikely, but if every fan of teams other than the big 4 boycotted sponsors, games and TV broadcasts, they could bring EPL to it's knees. The Big 4 need other teams to play against. It would take a great deal of organization.

There are 16 second and third class citizens in the EPL (not even counting the lower divisions).

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by troutman

This is very unlikely, but if every fan of teams other than the big 4 boycotted sponsors, games and TV broadcasts, they could bring EPL to it's knees. The Big 4 need other teams to play against. It would take a great deal of organization.

There are 16 second and third class citizens in the EPL (not even counting the lower divisions).

If this were to happen, the big 4 in the EPL would then hook up with the Big 4 in other leagues. A European Superleague has been discussed but the only thing stopping it is that they don't want to totally kill off domestic football.

Again it's weird but if you talk to fans of the 16 other teams, they're resigned to the fact that only the BIG 4 can win.

As I mentioned before, my manager ,who is a Stoke City native, is exstatic that they're in the EPL and will get absolutely destroyed next year

The gap will get wider and wider.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by troutman

This is very unlikely, but if every fan of teams other than the big 4 boycotted sponsors, games and TV broadcasts, they could bring EPL to it's knees. The Big 4 need other teams to play against. It would take a great deal of organization.

There are 16 second and third class citizens in the EPL (not even counting the lower divisions).

Like GirlySports said... the EPL Big 4 would get together with the Big Teams of Europe and have a real champions league. Bayern Munich, Ajax, PSV Eindhoven, Juventus, AC Milan, Rangers, Celtic and Barcelona would jump at the chance to bolt their existing leagues for a myriad of reasons. Like I said in my previous reply, the only reason many of these small teams get any TV money at all is the big clubs. Who wants to see Hull v. Fulham aside from a few local die-hards? Manchester United v. Hull... that's different.

There are 16 second and third class citizens in the EPL... the question I ask is why? Manchester City has a freespending owner with deep pockets, and a top coach... but yet they ended up in 9th, and are somehow in the UEFA cup. They just didn't spend wisely and build a good team. Who knows, with time they might sneak into the top 4. Everton, Tottenham, Blackburn (who won the Premiership in 1995), and Newcastle have all had significant European exposure, and have had success. Why are they so far back from the big 4? Management issues, financial blunders, and desire. While some teams have a rich sugar daddy... I don't think that can be said for 3 of the 4 big teams in the EPL. They are just well run clubs that have become richer with success. Every league has their teams that could have been top 5 if not managed so poorly. Lazio and Parma in Italy, Borussia Dortmund in Germany, Paris St. Germain in France, the obvious English ones, and the list goes on...