P90x

[Wookie]

I'm sure there was some comments in this thread about working out and how it effects your caloric burn post workout.

Here's a study that says it's bull.

There is a belief that exercise can turn you into a fat-burning machine. The idea is based on the suggestion that fat burning occurs not just during exercise, but also long after your workout is over. That post-exercise burn, so goes the theory, is instrumental in losing unwanted weight.
As it turns out, however, like so many headlines touting weight loss miracles, this one is more myth than fact.

http://www2.canada.com/calgaryherald...e-61b55fd1bee6

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Wookie

I'm sure there was some comments in this thread about working out and how it effects your caloric burn post workout.

Here's a study that says it's bull.



http://www2.canada.com/calgaryherald...e-61b55fd1bee6

Someone forgot to do their research.

EPOC.

The EPOC effect is greatest soon after the exercise is completed and decays to a lesser level over time. One experiment found EPOC increasing metabolic rate to an excess level that decays to 13% 3 hours after exercise, and 4% after 16 hours. Another study, specifically designed to test if the effect existed for more than 16 hours, conducted tests for 48 hours after the conclusion of the exercise and found measurable effect existed up to the 38 hour post-exercise measurement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_...en_consumption

Anyone who has played hockey, or done anykind of HIIT exercise knows exactly what I'm talking about.

[Wookie]

Originally Posted by Azure

Someone forgot to do their research.

EPOC.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_...en_consumption

Anyone who has played hockey, or done anykind of HIIT exercise knows exactly what I'm talking about.

I've played competitive hockey my whole life, I also do a lot of HIIT training when my HR reaches 165 - 180 and I'm not sure what you're talking about since all you said was "someone forgot to do their research"

I don't think the study posted above sounds all that great. They talk about cycling and burning 400 calories... But saying someone didn't do their research with a wiki follow up

[Jedi Ninja]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Did it look like this?



Because that's the brand I get from Costco, although they have 23 grams of protein unlike these ones, and I think they taste pretty good. Like a chocolate bar with a dry filling.

Bad news guys, those ones are heavy in soy protein, which is why they taste like they do. The Detour bar that they sell is a better choice, but still has some soy protein. It has only 15g of protein but has fewer calories also.

Anyway, as to Costco and P90X, is this a good deal:

http://www.costco.ca/Browse/Product....=1&topnav=&s=1

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Wookie

I've played competitive hockey my whole life, I also do a lot of HIIT training when my HR reaches 165 - 180 and I'm not sure what you're talking about since all you said was "someone forgot to do their research"

I don't think the study posted above sounds all that great. They talk about cycling and burning 400 calories... But saying someone didn't do their research with a wiki follow up

I'm not going to go find a bunch of studies done over the past 2-3 years showing that HIIT training makes your body burn up to 20% more calories for a certain time period AFTER exercising.

Ever checked your HR about 30 min after a hockey game? This winter I made a point of checking mine after every game, and it was usually around 140 for almost an hour after exercising. Which equals a lot of calories burned.

"After vigorous exercise, we've seen caloric expenditure increase for up to 48 hours," says exercise physiologist Tom R. Thomas, Ph.D., director of the exercise physiology program at the University of Missouri in Columbia. The longer and harder you work out, the greater the post-workout metabolism increase and the longer it lasts. Subjects in Thomas' research burned 600-700 calories during one hour of running at about 80 percent of their maximum heart rate. During the next 48 hours, they burned about 15 percent more calories -- 90-105 extra -- than they otherwise would have. About 75 percent of the post-workout metabolism increase occurs in the first 1 2 hours after exercise, according to Thomas.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...1/ai_83911021/

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Jedi Ninja

Bad news guys, those ones are heavy in soy protein, which is why they taste like they do. The Detour bar that they sell is a better choice, but still has some soy protein. It has only 15g of protein but has fewer calories also.

Anyway, as to Costco and P90X, is this a good deal:

http://www.costco.ca/Browse/Product....=1&topnav=&s=1

Vector cereal is good, and their protein bar is decent too.

Bit expensive though.

[Wookie]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm not going to go find a bunch of studies done over the past 2-3 years showing that HIIT training makes your body burn up to 20% more calories for a certain time period AFTER exercising.

Ever checked your HR about 30 min after a hockey game? This winter I made a point of checking mine after every game, and it was usually around 140 for almost an hour after exercising. Which equals a lot of calories burned.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...1/ai_83911021/

Fair enough, it was more tongue in cheek after the "do your research" comment

I'd imagine it also depends how good of shape you're in. My resting heart rate is 40, I'm pretty sure after my sprinting intervals my HR would be back a lot lower then to just 140 30 mins after, or after an ice time.

The better shape you're in - the harder it is to get your heart rate up and keep it up.

In fact - I've got to run for 40 mins tonight (although at a medium pace) and then play hockey tonight, I'll wear my HR monitor during my ice time and see how it goes.

[Azure]

Oh absolutely.

But it is still a bit higher for quite a while after you work out. Hockey is a killer that way. I couldn't fall asleep at times because my heart would be racing like crazy.

[Wookie]

Originally Posted by Azure

Oh absolutely.

But it is still a bit higher for quite a while after you work out. Hockey is a killer that way. I couldn't fall asleep at times because my heart would be racing like crazy.

Okay, ran for 40 mins (jog pace)
AHR was 140 MHR was 160

Then 15 mins later was on the ice for 70 mins HR ranged from 85 to 155 and up and down mostly between 125 to 150 occasionally higher and lower. Never below 100. After 70 mins it crashed from 140 to 71 in 4 mins then picked up as I quickly undressed and got to car. Within 29 mins I was at 45.

I won't be able to fall asleep though, I hate that.

I'll check the next time I lift weights hard. I always thought that was a bigger contributor to the theory of caloric burn then what the article said. Also 400 calories on a bike isn't to hard of a test.

Goodnight

[Azure]

I missed your post Wookie.....but I don't think you're hitting it hard enough. In order to activate EPOC, you need to get above 180. Or, if you're around the age of 30(I assume you're younger)....at least above 170.

What you're doing right now isn't exactly HIIT. I wore a HR monitor, albeit a cheap one, during the hockey season this past year, and my MHR was over 170 on at least 15-20 shifts during the course of 1 game. So, 30-45 sec shifts at a MHR of 170+, is a lot difference than a MHR below 160. The way I understand it, while you certainly feel winded if you jog, or even lift weights, EPOC never comes into play unless you hit a certain HR.

The few times I kept track, and my HR went above 170, usually it was around 180, especially when I did squats..... and when I finished, my HR was around 120 for at least 2 hours after working out. And my RHR at that time was in the low 50s.

These sessions were done right after lunch, and when I checked my HR after supper, or even before going to bed, it was still around 70-80. Which is almost double of what it should have been. I didn't bother to check every hour, but if you do the math, after a hard session of HIIT, or something like breathing squats or timed deadlifts, I would say your RHR falls about 10bpm every hour, after initially coming down to around 120 or so.

Of course, if you're in better shape, it'll become harder to activate EPOC, and it might not have such an effect either.

[Azure]

Oh, and a little more information about the 'carbs matter more than calories' theory I've been reading up on lately. The more I read, the more I'm convinced that carbs are the breaking point as far as weight loss is concerned.

Seconded on the 'they're both right'. ATZ should pretty much stop talking until he's wrapped his head around the effect of different foods on hormones and metabolic rate, and the non-directionality of the dE = Ein - Eout equation.


It has been demonstrated in isocaloric studies that fructose makes you gain more weight than glucose, vegetable oil makes you gain more weight than butter or lard, etc (http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/123/3/512). Omega-6 fats downregulate the effect of thyroid hormone in the body (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co...uppresses.html). If you eat a bunch of carbs and low fat, whenever you're not eating carbs, your still-elevated insulin is starving your cells by keeping fat trapped. This induces a starvation response of lowering basal metabolic rate. Likewise, if you eat fat all the time, and keep insulin low, your cells are going to always have plenty of energy available, which will raise your metabolic rate.


So, sure, calories do matter. But you're leaving your your implicit assumption that your metabolic rate is an immutable number, like..2378 calories per day or some such. That number is highly elastic, and within certain bounds (around 30-50% down, depending on how bad you want to starve someone, and several hundred percent on the upside).

The thing is that on a high carbohydrate diet it will tend to modulate your BMR to be less than the calories you take in, and on a high fat diet your BMR will be modulated to be higher than the calories you take in, both to within asymptotic limits (high fat may take you down to an ideal weight range, but not waste you away to death, and high carb may take you up to obese, but not everyone on a high carb diet ends up at 1000+lbs..it can probably be fairly well modeled by a first order differential equation, like Newton's law of cooling).


And Tarlach, I think you're leaving out the implicit assumption that you're talking about normal/obese individuals when you say if you don't eat carbs, you won't gain fat. If you take someone at 2.5% body fat who just competed in a bodybuilding competition, and feed him 30% protein, 70% fat, zero carbs, he's still going to float back up to a normal body fat percentage. Protein still releases insulin, ASP has an effect, we know this. Prehistoric man would have otherwise had a tough time maintaining a reserve of fat. I'll also posit that an 80% protein, 20% fat diet is going to result in a higher body fat set point than a 20% protein, 80% fat diet, due to the insulin effect of protein. If you're going to do a hypercaloric experiment, you're probably better off just feeding someone 100-150g of protein, and then fat for all the other calories.


But I'll agree that for obese people, their weight/body fat set point (as determined by food intake) is going to be below their current weight for most normal combinations of just protein and fat.


I'm sorry if that was a little rambling, but reading the rhetoric thread has been like watching two blind guys duel with pistols so far.

From here.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Azure

All protein powder tastes gross to me when I first use it.

After a while its alright.

Try Champion Nutrition chocolate whey, it tastes as good as Nesquik, I kid you not. I am buying it for nutritional value first and foremost but this stuff is actualy satisfying my chocolate cravings, which is quite remarkable.

[Azure]

Does it have any carbs?

SC says 4g per 130 calories, 23 g protein.

Not bad. I'll order it with my next batch. God knows I would progress a lot faster if I would actually like my protein powder.

[Wookie]

Originally Posted by Azure

but I don't think you're hitting it hard enough. In order to activate EPOC, you need to get above 180. Or, if you're around the age of 30(I assume you're younger)....at least above 170.

What you're doing right now isn't exactly HIIT. I wore a HR monitor, albeit a cheap one, during the hockey season this past year, and my MHR was over 170 on at least 15-20 shifts during the course of 1 game. So, 30-45 sec shifts at a MHR of 170+, is a lot difference than a MHR below 160. The way I understand it, while you certainly feel winded if you jog, or even lift weights, EPOC never comes into play unless you hit a certain HR.

The few times I kept track, and my HR went above 170, usually it was around 180, especially when I did squats..... and when I finished, my HR was around 120 for at least 2 hours after working out. And my RHR at that time was in the low 50s.

These sessions were done right after lunch, and when I checked my HR after supper, or even before going to bed, it was still around 70-80. Which is almost double of what it should have been. I didn't bother to check every hour, but if you do the math, after a hard session of HIIT, or something like breathing squats or timed deadlifts, I would say your RHR falls about 10bpm every hour, after initially coming down to around 120 or so.

Of course, if you're in better shape, it'll become harder to activate EPOC, and it might not have such an effect either.

1st bold - nope, like I said, slow jog, terrible ice time. HR never went very high.
2nd - I'm 30, 180 is the highest I've ever had it.
3rd - agreed, if it's existance is true. Today I have to hit 170 - 180 for 5 times over 8 minutes. We'll see if I can 1. do it today haha, dreaded day, and 2. what HR is like after.
4th - agreed, as you get in better shape it's harder to do everything.

[Azure]

Book idea.

http://www.amazon.com/Paleo-Diet-Wei.../dp/0471267554

Might not be what P90x suggests, as I have not seen what they suggest as far as eating carbs goes.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by Azure

Does it have any carbs?

SC says 4g per 130 calories, 23 g protein.

Not bad. I'll order it with my next batch. God knows I would progress a lot faster if I would actually like my protein powder.

4 grams per 32 gram serving, yes. I've tried a lot of brands, this one is miles ahead when it comes to taste.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not bad. I'll order it with my next batch. God knows I would progress a lot faster if I would actually like my protein powder.

I use unflavoured and blend it with frozen fruit and milk.

[Azure]

I don't want to blend it.

Well, at least not all the time. I want to be able to just pour a couple scoops into the container I use, add milk, and head out of the house.

[Jedi Ninja]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't want to blend it.

Well, at least not all the time. I want to be able to just pour a couple scoops into the container I use, add milk, and head out of the house.

Have you tried egg protein powder? Seems harder to come by these days, but I seem to recall that it mixed and tasted better than whey protein. (Mind you, last time I bought egg protein was like 10 years ago.)

[Top Shelf]

Man, just finished Day 1 in Phase 2 tonight, i did not know there were another 7 new ways to do frickin pushups! Had lots of energy tonight after the recovery week.

So far lost about 10 pounds, an inch or so off the waist, and I feel like a million bucks. Time commitment is the only real thing that is difficult to manage at this point. Feeling like I have the nutrition under way better control then I have at any point in the last 10 years.

Been doing lots of reading on different fitness forums and getting lots of new ideas about how I want to proceed after this program.