Can the Flames become a contender without tanking?

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Malkin and Fleury just came out of thin air?

Yes, get with the program!

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Malkin and Fleury just came out of thin air?

No but if people are going to dismiss Vegas for ridiculous uninformed reasons and say the Flames should fold and start up an expansion team facts about the Crosby draft must be somewhat relevant.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

No but if people are going to dismiss Vegas for ridiculous uninformed reasons and say the Flames should fold and start up an expansion team facts about the Crosby draft must be somewhat relevant.

Yes, being an expansion team is a ridiculous uninformed reason lol. Great comparison.

Once we get to do a fantasy draft like NHL 25 we can use Vegas as an example.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Yes, being an expansion team is a ridiculous uninformed reason lol. Great comparison.

Once we get to do a fantasy draft like NHL 25 we can use Vegas as an example.

I will let you continue to use the 31 franchises in the NHL who have drafted in the top 4 as a proof point they if you draft in the top 4 you will win the Cup.

[shutout]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I think we can all agree Vegas is a unique case. Are the Flames at a similar starting point that resembles anything like Vegas? The NHL isn't going to let the Flames hand pick players off every team in the league to build our team moving forward.

Except that most of the players that Vegas had available were third line players or underperforming contract dumps.
Those players are available every year if you want to make the deals.

Work towards building three solid second line level talents.
Get them playing together in a solid team system.
Draft high skill, high character players.
Step up and make the trades for players when they are available or that you want when you are in your window of contention.

Every team should be able to do this.
Other than Vegas and Boston, no teams are working on doing this as a strategy.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Didn't know expansion was such a hard concept to grasp.

When every other team gets to pick a player from every team, and some teams trade them valuable assets to not select a player we can use Vegas as a comparison.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The Bruins have been a top team in the league for the most part of two decades now, not because they blew it up and drafted high, but because they drafted well and managed to find core players and superstars throughout the draft. They also made good UFA signings and trades.

Pastrnak 25th overall, Marchand 71st overall, McAvoy 14th overall, Swayman 111th overall and going back further they had guys like Bergeron 45th overall and Krejci 63rd overall lead their team for a decade.

Yeah and that really isn't a realistic expectation. No team should be expected to do what the Bruins managed to do in the 2005-2015.

So they drafted multiple HHOF level players in Bergeron, Marchard, and Pastrnak, signed a HHOF defender in Chara and an outside chance of being a HHOF goaltender in Tim Thomas, then traded for a starting goaltender in Rask. They also drafted Krejci and Lucic in the same time period outside of the first round.

That isn't even mentioning drafting Kessel (Seguin) and Hamilton.

Could the Flames do that... I guess it is possible, but it seems very, very unlikely.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Yeah and that really isn't a realistic expectation. No team should be expected to do what the Bruins managed to do in the 2005-2015.

So they drafted multiple HHOF level players in Bergeron, Marchard, and Pastrnak, signed a HHOF defender in Chara and an outside chance of being a HHOF goaltender in Tim Thomas, then traded for a starting goaltender in Rask. They also drafted Krejci and Lucic in the same time period outside of the first round.

That isn't even mentioning drafting Kessel (Seguin) and Hamilton.

Could the Flames do that... I guess it is possible, but it seems very, very unlikely.

Every team gets lucky once in awhile, the Flames did with Johnny

But you have to be lucky like 5X to win if you don’t have a top pick. Even the Bruins had too picks.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by traptor

Boston had all the horseshoes as previously mentioned. And those horseshoe stayed together for a long time. You had Bergeron, Marchand, chara and rask all playing there for 10-15 years.
It wasn't multiple iterations of cores while sustaining success. It was one core together for a long time.

And it seems like they're sliding into mushy middle status after getting hit with the bullet we dodged (lindholm).

Bergeron was a generational player. Hes one of the greatest two way centers and leaders to ever play.

Chara was a perinnial noris winner.
Marchand a superstar rat winger
Rask was a perinnial vezna winner.


Could you do this outside of early 1st round picks? Yeah it's possible.

Is it likely? Hell no.

Even Boston wasn't at all perfectly managed -- they traded Thornton for nothing which kicked off this "amazing decade" and then ended that decade dumping Seguin who was entering his prime for mid level players... and then they completely blew the 2015 draft, which might have set them up for a couple cups over the next decade.

But luck and good management/culture can trump high draft picks.

They got extremely lucky by dumping Raycroft early on for the just drafted Tuuka Rask (who had question marks) and got an amazing but completely unexpected return for Phil Kessel. And they hit on a few really important
draft pieces, which is both lucky and good management, and I think as importantly, they created an incredibly strong culture where players took team-friendly deals to be competitive in the early salary cap years.

This is something that Conroy and the Flames management are likely trying to replicate: Draft well and hopefully get a little lucky (informed luck), make good trades, and create a culture where players want to stay in Calgary and play for a good organization and team.

We can and will continue to debate whether the Flames absolutely need to tank to contend, but I'm pretty happy with the mentality of management and the coaching staff, so I think they're on a good path.

[NegativeSpace]

Part of it is what management can and cannot control. Management has no control over the results at this moment in time. I bet Conroy would love to have a couple of top 10 picks in the next couple years. He can’t control this team exceeding expectations. His first real test on whether he’s learned from the last regime is whether to keep investing in the future or invest in now. We’ve heard no indication that he’s deviating from focusing on the future. I don’t consider waiting to see if this team makes the playoffs as anything beyond simply being a prudent manager of the organization.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

A team looking to contend and trading for Andersson won’t want to give up a current producing asset.

Why not? Contending teams trade from an area of strength to shore up an area of weakness from time to time (less than before). It's probably even more likely with a player like Andersson who's on a great deal of a contract and with Calgary's cap space, as Calgary can accommodate a more expensive player if they want him.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

When the Flames beat Dallas, Dallas was a 'great story' at getting back to the playoffs with a nice young roster. I don't think anyone labeled them as a contender. Last season was probably the first time with that core that Dallas was labeled as a contender, and they flopped. I don't think this season I would call them a contender either. Good solid team, but I don't think they come out of the central. They are probably the 5th best team in the west for the cup this year I would say, and maybe 6th by my personal estimation, though we will see what other moves they make.

Dallas was in the cup final in 2020, Flames beat them in the 2022 playoffs

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I will let you continue to use the 31 franchises in the NHL who have drafted in the top 4 as a proof point they if you draft in the top 4 you will win the Cup.

But the stat was top 2 , and you guys moved it to top 4

There’s historically a huge difference between top 2 picks and the 4th pick

[Yanda]

Drafting early increases your changes of getting franchise players in the same window. I dont think that fact can be argued.

Being a bubble team trying to get franchise players developed in the same window is extremely challenging and your window is likely to be alot smaller than if you can draft them consecutively.

Not saying its impossible, just that its more challenging and less likely.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Makarov

He wasn't drafted, but Norris-winner Giordano must count as a "hit" too, no?

Of course. That's also just as random. Finding legit stars is tough.

Brodie to me is closer to being in the same tier as Mangiapane rather than Gaudreau/Giordano/Wolf. Very good serviceable player. Not the same as a star player.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Yanda

Drafting early increases your changes of getting franchise players in the same window. I dont think that fact can be argued.

Being a bubble team trying to get franchise players developed in the same window is extremely challenging and your window is likely to be alot smaller than if you can draft them consecutively.

Not saying its impossible, just that its more challenging and less likely.

I feel like we have this conversation here at least once a month and this is always the where it lands.

Look at Tampa!
But look at Buffalo.
You can’t look at Buffalo!
Look at Vegas.
You can’t look at Vegas!
Look at Pittsburgh.
You can’t look at Chicago.
I said Pittsburgh!
A rebuild takes time.
How much time.
Ten years!
No, five years!
Between five years and fifteen years?
We have to do it now!
What’s the rush?
Yes it’s easier if you pick higher.
Yes it’s more likely to work if you pick higher.
No it’s not impossible if you don’t pick higher.
No we can’t just will those picks to exist.
What do we do?
Nothing.
OK let’s talk about it again next month.

[Rhett44]

There are reasons that Vegas can compete without a rebuild... players around the NHL are begging to go there, and are willing to sign for cheap.

Nobody wants to come to Calgary at a discount. There is no comparison whatsoever. And nothing will change that.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Dallas was in the cup final in 2020, Flames beat them in the 2022 playoffs

No way Dallas was a contender going into that playoffs, Sorry.

Montreal made the cup final in 2021, were they contenders in 2023? Doesn't work like that.

[Rhett44]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

No way Dallas was a contender going into that playoffs, Sorry.

Montreal made the cup final in 2021, were they contenders in 2023? Doesn't work like that.

The Dallas Stars are like the Cowboys.

Every year we get told that this could be their year. And every year it isn't true. They are basically Maple Leafs west.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

The Dallas Stars are like the Cowboys.

Every year we get told that this could be their year. And every year it isn't true. They are basically Maple Leafs west.

The Stars have won 7 playoff series in the past 5 years. The only seasons they did not make at least the conference finals was the year they missed the playoffs and the year the Flames beat them.

The Stars have had 40 years worth of Leafs success in the last 5 years alone.