The Faith Poll

[FlamesFanInEdm]

Originally Posted by troutman

http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mousetrap.html

the mousetrap that Behe uses as an analogy CAN be reduced in complexity and still function as a mousetrap


http://www.cbs.dtu.dk/staff/dave/Behe.html

There are many places where, when the arguments presented can be put to the test, they fail miserably. For example, his insistence of the absence of literature about molecular evolution. This is easy to test, and see that what he is claiming is clearly wrong. This greatly reduces his integrity, in my opinion When reading the book, I get the feeling that Behe is implying some sort of "conspiracy" amongst scientists. I am convinced that what motivates many very good and talented scientists is the desire to be RIGHT and to be the first one who got there.
The appeal to ignorance of the reader. Many things are said to support his arguments which are simply not true, but the intended reader would likely have no idea of this.

http://www.americanscientist.org/tem...?fulltext=true

.

Ok, obviously one can make a simpler mousetrap than the one with multiple parts, but the mousetrap proposed by McDonald has a specific goal in mind, to kill mice. The wire must be coiled, positioned, and bent in such a way that makes it likely to catch the mouse. Furthermore, there must a base on which this system is supported.

"Attaching the spring to a piece of wood is even better, since it's easier to move around, doesn't leave holes in the floor, and can be used on concrete floors. The wooden platform and the staples are optional, though; the trap would still work with just the spring"

The platform is optional, is this just going to float in space?

In this supposed refutation, the author brings in the issue of guided or macro evolution. I find it much harder to believe this to be possible than to believe in a Creator with design in mind when He created everything. Micro evolution, yes, macroevolution, no.

Some more questions - Would comparing evolution to a tornado going through a junkyard and assembling a 747 spontaneusly be comparable (even if all the pieces are laying randomly in the junkyard, whereas evolution creates all the parts itself)? Would you put your faith in this being possible?

One more random question --> Why do someof the planets spin backwards, does not Conservation of Angular Momentum dictate that they should all spin the same way when the universe was created? Also, I have read that the Sun should have about 700 times more angular momentum than all the planets combined if it is taken to be where the universe originated. Instead, the planets apparently have 50 times more angular momentum than the Sun. Could someone who had taken science either verify or disprove this for me?


And no, Im not in science.
________
TEEN ASIAN

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanInEdm

Ok, obviously one can make a simpler mousetrap than the one with multiple parts, but the mousetrap proposed by McDonald has a specific goal in mind, to kill mice. The wire must be coiled, positioned, and bent in such a way that makes it likely to catch the mouse. Furthermore, there must a base on which this system is supported.

"Attaching the spring to a piece of wood is even better, since it's easier to move around, doesn't leave holes in the floor, and can be used on concrete floors. The wooden platform and the staples are optional, though; the trap would still work with just the spring"

The platform is optional, is this just going to float in space?

In this supposed refutation, the author brings in the issue of guided or macro evolution. I find it much harder to believe this to be possible than to believe in a Creator with design in mind when He created everything. Micro evolution, yes, macroevolution, no.

Some more questions - Would comparing evolution to a tornado going through a junkyard and assembling a 747 spontaneusly be comparable (even if all the pieces are laying randomly in the junkyard, whereas evolution creates all the parts itself)? Would you put your faith in this being possible?

One more random question --> Why do two of the planets spin backwards, does not the Law of Angular Momentum dictate that they should all spin the same way when the universe was created?

And no, Im not in science.

Of course there are questions science doesn't have the answers to yet (maybe this angular momentum thing, I've never even heard of it), but just because science hasn't figured it out, the answer can't be "God did it, because we don't get it" and that seems to be what you are pushing.

I'm sure there is a clever answer out there for your "747 in a tornado" scenario, but I don't know it. It seems as plausible to me, though, as a story about a guy born to a virgin who can walk on water, rise from the dead and all that.

What kind of creation do you believe in? The "it happened 10 thousand years ago" kind or the "god started it all with the big bang billions of years ago and made all this stuff kind". I think there is a big difference.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Threads about Jesus make Marc Savard cry.

[4X4]

Stayed out all night and missed Cheese's briliant retort.

Cheese, at what point did I try to prove Jesus' existance? When did Cow hang me out to dry? And when were the other 9 times?

What do you mean I'm dodging the question?

I didn't ask a question. I simply said that your anti religous ranting is no different from the extremism of the super religous. Everytime this board wades into religion, you are there to jam your athiest views down the throats of the religous. Other athiests on the board discuss it. You disregard their opinions as nonsense, and produce some cheesy interpretation of the bible.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Stayed out all night and missed Cheese's briliant retort.

Cheese, at what point did I try to prove Jesus' existance? When did Cow hang me out to dry? And when were the other 9 times?

What do you mean I'm dodging the question?

I didn't ask a question. I simply said that your anti religous ranting is no different from the extremism of the super religous. Everytime this board wades into religion, you are there to jam your athiest views down the throats of the religous. Other athiests on the board discuss it. You disregard their opinions as nonsense, and produce some cheesy interpretation of the bible.

and more often than not, he is the one starting these discussions.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Stayed out all night and missed Cheese's briliant retort.

Cheese, at what point did I try to prove Jesus' existance? When did Cow hang me out to dry? And when were the other 9 times?

What do you mean I'm dodging the question?

I didn't ask a question. I simply said that your anti religous ranting is no different from the extremism of the super religous. Everytime this board wades into religion, you are there to jam your athiest views down the throats of the religous. Other athiests on the board discuss it. You disregard their opinions as nonsense, and produce some cheesy interpretation of the bible.

Ohh big bad scary 4x4 is back with his threats! :baby:
If you werent so funny Id puke. Seriously man get off your soapbox.
Feel free to go back and post any "rant" Ive made. You are the ranter my friend and when it comes to brilliant retorts heres a few gems...(Some of these include you espousing what you believe in...which answers your own question...

I always interpreted 'spiritual' as acknowledging that life didn't evolve (at least without 'intelligent design'), but at the samw time, not buying into one of the organized religions.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that cells, as complicated as automoblies and then some, just sort of came together along with trillions of other cells, to form beings that posess consciousness.

IMHO, there can not be a big bang without something or someone there to provide the fuel, the ignition and the other thing that forms the triangle (yea, I'm too lazy to look it up).

Originally Posted by Snakeeye
Hey, you are a religious zealot lacking, merely the god. I find it comical how you turn all of these threads into a pupit aimed at converting people to your beliefs. That is one of the main problems I have with all of these sects.

Each man has the right to choose his own path, and those that push others down their paths will always be treated with disdain.


I like this post. Because it's true. From beginning to end.

No, but you will find plenty of your posts that are all but calling people of faith idiots.

You're not understanding tha tthe difference between believing science and having a faith is believing in what you can prove and believing in what you can feel.

It's all so stupid to you if a missionary knocks on your door and tells you that you are perceiving the world the wrong way. Why is is so stupid? Because he is speaking from his point of view. From a faith point of view.

the reason why people hate the throat shoving bible thumpers is because they don't like being told that they way they think is wrong. And they are right. What gives them the right to tell anyone tha tthey are not thinking hte right way?

Well, Cheese, you do the exact same thing. In reverse.

I love how you completely disregard the fact that I have yet to post my religous beliefs and still ask me to prove (jesus' existance)...?

There are many other posts where you call me an idiot or other inane childish names...whatever...you get on your pulpit Mr 4x4 and do what you please. As I pointed out to Firefly I havent called anyone an idiot for their beliefs, and I HAVE stated mine...as you have above.
You seem to have a problem with anyone stating a viewpoint different from yours 4x4...thats a BIG problem as far as Im concerned.
This is a free world and as long as it remains so I will always state my beliefs in any form I so choose...without your permission! It appears as though you try the same...but use vulgarities and threats as a means to an end. My interpretations are shared by many others 4x4...if all you can offer is hollow threats then dont bother retorting because its you who looks foolish.
As I mentioned before...go ahead and pray to the Great Spaghetti Monster for all I care. Just dont try and teach my kids your religion. Is that so tough to understand?
Oh by the way...I didnt start this thread or the Thread about the Italian Priest.

[Cowperson]

You're going to have to break out some of your Ninja moves soon to keep all your enemies off your back there Cheese.

Cowperson

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

You're going to have to break out some of your Ninja moves soon to keep all your enemies off your back there Cheese.

Cowperson

ah their not enemies Cow...but just in case...

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I've never asked you either in this thread or any other to prove that God existed.

I have said in this thread and many others that it is impossible to either prove or disprove the existence of God.

It's quite possible, however, to have a discussion of "proof" for the basic foundation of Christianity - such as the nebulous fact of Jesus - without getting into a discussion on the existence of God.

Cowperson

But if Christ is God, then it's one and the same. And if you can't prove God existed, why should you be able to prove Christ did either? I guess that's part of a faith test God allows us to be put through. Of course there are going to be things that make us question His existance, and all those things go to science to explain.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Well now that weve got that over with Im sure youd find me to be the exact same type of person you are...loving and open and smiling all the time.
Oh and I never said ALL religious people are hypocrites...but I did say youll find a good bunch of them there.
I and all the others on the non theist side have said on multiple occasions that Gods existence or non existence cannot be proven by science. We do however suggest that there is no proof whatsoever of the existence of Jesus Christ. If thats the same to you then we can agree never to agree.
We arent out to attack your "choice" in life, or for that matter how you decide to live it, Religious choice is yours as non Theism is ours.
The Post was created to determine choices and view the religious demographic here at CP. Obviously with polar opposite viewpoints on this topic things will get heated...thats ok because like Cow, myself ,trout and others we would love nothing more than to be proven wrong. Can we honestly say that about Christians though?

So are you athiest or agnostic? Because that's a huge gap between the two there, and I think that should be strightened out before going further.

Why is it that 20 years after Jesus died, and 1000 years after he died, no one questioned that he lived, but now all of a sudden you want evidence? Why aren't the multiple accounts of his existance enough? What proof are you looking for? a tomb with his name on it? If I have an unmarked grave and no one writes about me until 20 years after I die, does that mean there's no proof I existed?

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by FireFly

But if Christ is God, then it's one and the same. And if you can't prove God existed, why should you be able to prove Christ did either? I guess that's part of a faith test God allows us to be put through. Of course there are going to be things that make us question His existance, and all those things go to science to explain.

Christ is God in YOUR religion. It doesn't have to be in mine or others to make God a reality in our hearts and minds.

Believing in Jesus isn't a requirement to believe in God.

If you want to make Christ a God, that's your business.

In fact, I've said that the existence of God can't be proven or not proven therefore its really not an issue if you ask me.

However, you're the people claiming an earthly Christ existed and that is eminently within the sphere of whether or not it can be proven or not . . . . hence the trial in Italy where an Italian Priest will be forced to prove the existence of Jesus.

So . . . . what do you want to talk about? Does God exist? That's a waste of time. It can't be proven or disproven. Jesus? Well, there are two threads going on that right now and its certainly something to talk about.

Cowperson

[photon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Threads about Jesus make Marc Savard cry.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

So are you athiest or agnostic? Because that's a huge gap between the two there, and I think that should be strightened out before going further.

Why is it that 20 years after Jesus died, and 1000 years after he died, no one questioned that he lived, but now all of a sudden you want evidence? Why aren't the multiple accounts of his existance enough? What proof are you looking for? a tomb with his name on it? If I have an unmarked grave and no one writes about me until 20 years after I die, does that mean there's no proof I existed?

Im Atheist...Cow is Agnostic...but I think you can see that we come from close quarters. Not a huge gap at all really, and both parties are part of the Humanist chain. That doesnt mean I dont want you to prove me wrong. I simply do not believe there is any type of entity or spirit that is God...or Jesus. That doesnt mean I dont feel, love or care.
Im sure the next question would be...well IF I am wrong then I chance the fact that I might not get invited beyond the pearly gates.
If there is a God and this God is a fair and just God, surely he will judge people on their actions in life, not on whether they happen to believe in him. A God who sends good and kind people to hell is not one most atheists would be prepared to consider worshipping.
Im sure if you go back and read pretty much everything I write you see that I am firmly against this type of teaching, ESPECIALLY to our children.

Atheists havent just been questioning the existence of Jesus "all of a sudden". There have been non-believers as long as there have been believers. For a great number of years suggesting that idea might merit someone a beheading or worse.

Atheists arent two headed monsters running amok in society burning churches and destroying synagogues....it seems differing religions do a good enough job of that themselves. We simply watch...amused. I donate money and time, I volunteer and work with youth. I know many other Atheists who hold positions of power and control....all of whom are just as charitable as anyone else. The need to have a belief in a deity simply does not exist in our lives.

[MolsonInBothHands]

I have a quick question for the Atheists in the audience, truly out of curiosity, no disrespect intended or implied: Do you hold any special respect for national symbols when they are littered with references to God? egs. "God keep our land...", "God save the Queen...", "In God we Trust"

Just wondering how you feel when taking your hat off, and showing respect during the national anthem, knowing full well you are humming along to a tune that contradicts some of your beliefs?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

I have a quick question for the Atheists in the audience, truly out of curiosity, no disrespect intended or implied: Do you hold any special respect for national symbols when they are littered with references to God? egs. "God keep our land...", "God save the Queen...", "In God we Trust"

Just wondering how you feel when taking your hat off, and showing respect during the national anthem, knowing full well you are humming along to a tune that contradicts some of your beliefs?

Well, I just sing it like this:

http://makepeace.ca/anthem.html

O Canada!
Our home and cherished land!
True patriot love in all of us command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
Come, keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

[4X4]

Dude, yoiu crack me up... Threats? Threats? Where? When?

As for my pulpit (or whatever you wanna call it), just forget about it. All I was trying to doi was tell you that you are totally relentless in your cause to INFORM religous people that they are believing a bunch of crap.

Just saying, what makes you any different from a relentless JW that keeps harassing you...?

Hey. Yo're the one dodging it. You're the one that keeps calling my religion into the picture. My one post about spirituality was from a different thread. But hey. It's my interpretation of "SPIRITUALITY"... And I guess, religion. What in the heck does that have to do with your mission to disprove jesuss existance? Really? What?

Are you too one track minded to see that I'm talking about something entirely different?

I say one thing, and you reply with some crazy bible stuff and somehow that is supposed to prove somehting to me.

I think you may have a crossed wire, Cheese. We're talking about completely different things.



















Threats... Are we reading the same thread...?


And what the hell do I care who started the thread...?

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

Just wondering how you feel when taking your hat off, and showing respect during the national anthem, knowing full well you are humming along to a tune that contradicts some of your beliefs?

It's just words to me that happen to be part of my country's anthem. It's just like music. There's many songs I like that have references to god but its just lyrics to me. The only god referenced song that makes me feel anything is Prayer from Disturbed which is about questioning god's existance because of all the the **** that happens in the world which is just like me not believing in god because of what I was born with.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Im Atheist...Cow is Agnostic...but I think you can see that we come from close quarters. Not a huge gap at all really, and both parties are part of the Humanist chain. That doesnt mean I dont want you to prove me wrong. I simply do not believe there is any type of entity or spirit that is God...or Jesus. That doesnt mean I dont feel, love or care.
Im sure the next question would be...well IF I am wrong then I chance the fact that I might not get invited beyond the pearly gates.
If there is a God and this God is a fair and just God, surely he will judge people on their actions in life, not on whether they happen to believe in him. A God who sends good and kind people to hell is not one most atheists would be prepared to consider worshipping.
Im sure if you go back and read pretty much everything I write you see that I am firmly against this type of teaching, ESPECIALLY to our children.

Atheists havent just been questioning the existence of Jesus "all of a sudden". There have been non-believers as long as there have been believers. For a great number of years suggesting that idea might merit someone a beheading or worse.

Atheists arent two headed monsters running amok in society burning churches and destroying synagogues....it seems differing religions do a good enough job of that themselves. We simply watch...amused. I donate money and time, I volunteer and work with youth. I know many other Atheists who hold positions of power and control....all of whom are just as charitable as anyone else. The need to have a belief in a deity simply does not exist in our lives.

I wasn't saying you were a two headed monster or anything. Nor was I saying that they just started questioning Jesus. They've obviously done that all along. However, previously, people didn't question that he existed, they just questioned that he was God. Now they're saying he didn't even exist.

Anyways, I don't understand that you can say God doesn't exist when there is no proof He doesn't. As an athiest, you've made up your mind. You're telling me as a Christian to prove Jesus did exist, but you as an Athiest aren't able to prove God doesn't. And yet you're banking on that IF He does exist, He won't send you to Hell because you're a good person.

There are other Gods without some form of Hell. If you're unwilling to accept a Christian God, but insecure in there not being one, why don't you believe in a 'nicer' one?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I wasn't saying you were a two headed monster or anything. Nor was I saying that they just started questioning Jesus. They've obviously done that all along. However, previously, people didn't question that he existed, they just questioned that he was God. Now they're saying he didn't even exist.

Anyways, I don't understand that you can say God doesn't exist when there is no proof He doesn't. As an athiest, you've made up your mind. You're telling me as a Christian to prove Jesus did exist, but you as an Athiest aren't able to prove God doesn't. And yet you're banking on that IF He does exist, He won't send you to Hell because you're a good person.

There are other Gods without some form of Hell. If you're unwilling to accept a Christian God, but insecure in there not being one, why don't you believe in a 'nicer' one?

Fly...didnt you read Cows post back to you?
We cant prove God exists or not. Thats not even the question. As an Atheist I have decided not to believe in a God. Im not banking on anything regarding death and heaven at all. Just as you cant remember one little thing before you were born the same will happen when you die. You will be kept alive by those who love you and cherish you. They will tell stories of Great Grandmother Fly in the late 21st century and how she battled for the righteousness of a God. Jesus is a different story though. Religions have been created and based on the fact that he was an actual person. I and many others simply believe that this is a lie.
Heres a small list of Gods...how bout you pick one....

Major Gods and Goddesses of the world

[FireFly]

"The absence of proof is not proof of absence.
If no one can actually prove that a certain individual existed that does not therefore lead to the conclusion that the individial did not exist. It leads to the conclusion that there is no proof that the individual existed which is something else entirely and still leaves the question wide open."
- Quoted from ChrisC at the CF.com

Ever asked a person who was clinically dead what happened? Most of them will tell you they saw something....