[News] Kyle Dubas won't return as Leafs GM

[united]

Originally Posted by bluejays

I didn't expect this type of press conference. Dubas pulled a millennial card and tried fastracking his career by putting the screws to Shanahan. It really puts the guy in a different light.

Perhaps pedantic, but the negotiating approach wasn’t lead by Dubas himself, it was orchestrated by his agent Chris Armstrong - whose firm also represents Treliving. It’s the game plan to maximize compensation (or attempt to) and closely mirrored in both situations.

Unable to come to terms with team leading to expiring contract.
Mid-season leaks to the media about interest from different team start dropping.
Attempt to gain leverage by tendering a “take it or leave it” offer with massive compensation increase.
Narrative to the media about the demands of the job (despite the largest and second-largest fleet of AGMs in the league…) and needing time away/won’t rush back into a job as need to decompress or whatever..
Teams counter much lower - is perceived as low ball. Poker match is on.

In Treliving’s case, he said I’m out and walked, leaving the Flames stunned.
In Dubas’, realizing his lifelong dream of GMing his childhood team, the Toronto Mapleleafs, was teetering on a cliff, came with 11th hour counter-offer but the damage was done. Whoops.


No different than how every Lewis Gross RFA goes through the same song and dance about playing out the season in Europe.

[FBI]

Watch Treliving shine in Toronto. It will be another flames “young up and comer” (in management terms) leaving Calgary to do big things lol.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by united

Perhaps pedantic, but the negotiating approach wasn’t lead by Dubas himself, it was orchestrated by his agent Chris Armstrong - whose firm also represents Treliving. It’s the game plan to maximize compensation (or attempt to) and closely mirrored in both situations.

Unable to come to terms with team leading to expiring contract.
Mid-season leaks to the media about interest from different team start dropping.
Attempt to gain leverage by tendering a “take it or leave it” offer with massive compensation increase.
Narrative to the media about the demands of the job (despite the largest and second-largest fleet of AGMs in the league…) and needing time away/won’t rush back into a job as need to decompress or whatever..
Teams counter much lower - is perceived as low ball. Poker match is on.

In Treliving’s case, he said I’m out and walked, leaving the Flames stunned.
In Dubas’, realizing his lifelong dream of GMing his childhood team, the Toronto Mapleleafs, was teetering on a cliff, came with 11th hour counter-offer but the damage was done. Whoops.


No different than how every Lewis Gross RFA goes through the same song and dance about playing out the season in Europe.

I totally understand the negotiation angle. It sounds like a bad faith offer on Dubas’ part. Debatable weather he was trying to leverage his family situation which I don’t think he was, but when he said on the presser last week it was hard on his family and he wasn’t sure if he wanted to return in exec circles it was a sign he wasn’t all in. To a guy being paid millions in a management position where you generally don’t say such things I understand Shanahan’s conundrum. When he came back with other terms to the contract and it’s 11th hour and it may have been more money or more control and it’s not about the family situation and how they can ease the burden then it certainly makes it look like he was trying to squeeze out more hoping perhaps his family situation resolves itself but trying to squeeze more money (perhaps even going against what they previously bridged). Shanahan looked like he had to pull the trump card to avoid a leverage issue later on, or go back to the board to explain a completely new offer which he didn’t feel comfortable doing. We don’t know both sides to this but it certainly seems like the Leafs were willing to lay the facts out there to let people know it wasn’t their fault. Based on what they said it really does look bad on Dubas and his agent. I don’t blame trying to get more but leveraging the organization in an unethical way would’ve pissed me off as a fan if that was my team. Totally understand why Shanahan had enough.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by FBI

Watch Treliving shine in Toronto. It will be another flames “young up and comer” (in management terms) leaving Calgary to do big things lol.

If GMBT was about 75% Cliff Fletcher here, he will probably be that in TO too.

He was a competent GM IMO, the fact he was so highly praised in Calgary says more about the other guys between him and Fletcher, than it says about GMBT.

I know that's not a popular decision.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by FBI

Watch Treliving shine in Toronto. It will be another flames “young up and comer” (in management terms) leaving Calgary to do big things lol.

Another? Who was the first?

Fletcher wasn't a young up and comer when he left Calgary. The Leafs wanted him specifically because he was an established veteran who had built a winner.

I guess David Poile was young when he left the Flames and went to Washington, but that was over 40 years ago.

Risebrough was good riddance when he left, and didn't do anything special in Minnesota.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by getbak

Another? Who was the first?

Fletcher wasn't a young up and comer when he left Calgary. The Leafs wanted him specifically because he was an established veteran who had built a winner.

I guess David Poile was young when he left the Flames and went to Washington, but that was over 40 years ago.

Risebrough was good riddance when he left, and didn't do anything special in Minnesota.

I think he means players.

[sureLoss]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1661013565086793732

[Sec214]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

https://twitter.com/user/status/1661013565086793732

Dubas made promises to those guys (4Core) and the “shannaplan” wants to make a shift… he wasn’t willing to cull his herd.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Sec214

Dubas made promises to those guys (4Core) and the “shannaplan” wants to make a shift… he wasn’t willing to cull his herd.

Not questioning you, though is that fact? Based on his presser I thought one of Marner or Nylander would definitely be on the way out. Now I’m wondering if this type of rumour of holding his big four is a leak ploy so that those guys are on edge and don’t budge/ or makes the new GMs job tougher through showing that Dubas was loyal to them even now. A subtle way of screwing over the team for jettisoning him?

[Sec214]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Not questioning you, though is that fact? Based on his presser I thought one of Marner or Nylander would definitely be on the way out. Now I’m wondering if this type of rumour of holding his big four is a leak ploy so that those guys are on edge and don’t budge/ or makes the new GMs job tougher through showing that Dubas was loyal to them even now. A subtle way of screwing over the team for jettisoning him?

If my memory is correct I remember Dubas saying something along the lines that he commented Nylander/Marner he would never trade them during their contract negotiations. My brain is hurting over the last couple of days.

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by Sec214

If my memory is correct I remember Dubas saying something along the lines that he commented Nylander/Marner he would never trade them during their contract negotiations. My brain is hurting over the last couple of days.

Heard Shanahan is a total control freak. Its the Shanny show. He's why they overpaid for Nylander and Marner.

[bluejays]

I have no doubt shanahan is a control freak. But the way the sound of it seemed like the contract negotiation asking for a new direction in money or terms (less control) was not tabled early and just based on that would have put shanahan up against a self imposed deadline where dubas and agent could demand too much and get away with it against the July 1st backdrop, so he played their negotiation with the ultimate trump card. At the same time the guy is the president and if it’s run by a Corp those lines or communication are completely normal as are those personalities. So I don’t think either side is wrong in the sense of wanting more autonomy but how they went about doing it was a problem.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by bluejays

I have no doubt shanahan is a control freak. But the way the sound of it seemed like the contract negotiation asking for a new direction in money or terms (less control) was not tabled early and just based on that would have put shanahan up against a self imposed deadline where dubas and agent could demand too much and get away with it against the July 1st backdrop, so he played their negotiation with the ultimate trump card. At the same time the guy is the president and if it’s run by a Corp those lines or communication are completely normal as are those personalities. So I don’t think either side is wrong in the sense of wanting more autonomy but how they went about doing it was a problem.

He didn't get it, but the team left him hanging all year on his contract. If they want you back - you go for all you can get.

[FlamesAddiction]

I thought that was a well-worded exit statement and adios to the fans. He didn't point any fingers or say anything that could create a stir. Maybe the only thing you could read between the lines a little bit on is that he didn't mention Shanahan by name. Still, wise of him to not say anything that could burn bridges. The NHL is a small world.

I am still surprised that Treliving hasn't said anything publicly about his departure.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

https://twitter.com/user/status/1661013565086793732

Onward...obviously a hint that he's coming to join the Flames front office.

[chummer]

No surprise-

https://twitter.com/user/status/1661343686985150465

[Erick Estrada]

Shocking. I find it funny that Treliving to the Leafs has been a discussion on a Flames board for months now. Seems like this has been in the works for some time behind the scenes.

[bluejays]

I dunno. The Dubas situation seemed like it was getting done until it didn’t.

Regarding the Leafs promising to keep their core together is really interesting. I understand wanting to not let the unknown get to them when they hold some of the cards, but to not explore dealing Nylander or Marner is a head scratcher. Certainly they’re almost irreplaceable given their age and skill, but they’re chips to be explored to see what’s out there to get back. Maybe they already have some of that info, but to me it’s odd. While admirable to keep a young core together, it sounds like one last kick at the can is in order, with the 1st rounder probably being available to get those missing pieces (just a guess). I’d dangle numerous of our players out there to get a first from the Leafs if possible. Toffoli seems like one of those guys who score in the slot who they could use.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

He didn't get it, but the team left him hanging all year on his contract. If they want you back - you go for all you can get.

I’m sure he was maximizing his earnings as a result of having to wait until trade deadline but tabling a different offer last minute wouldn’t fly with any organization. Him and his agent made a gross mistake in their approach.

Shanahan also erred in not setting a negotiation deadline. This almost certainly surprised him but still.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by bluejays

I dunno. The Dubas situation seemed like it was getting done until it didn’t.

I don't know. It seems to me that if you really want your GM to be running the team going forward you don't let him work the last year of his deal without an extension. Writing was on the wall for both of these guys for a long time. Treliving leaving Calgary and Dubas not surviving a short Leafs playoffs.