Enough is enough - Bring up Wolf.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Preferably not when the fans and media expect him to be the savior of the season. If Markstrom or Vladar get hurt then yeah, you do what you have to do.

He won't necessarily get ruined if things go bad but you want to put your rookies into a position to succeed.

The whole thing about the Flames just needing goaltending and they'll be good seems to just be a thing with Flames fans. Whenever I see non-Flames media talk about the Flames they do call out the goaltending but they also say the team takes too many low quality shots, doesn't capitalize enough on good chances, and when they do give up a high danger chance it's really bad.

Who do you think in Calgary, a well informed canadian hockey market, is going to expect the 21 year old to be the savior?

Have they expected Pelletier to drive the 2nd line and fix its woes /criticized him for his production to this point?

Right. So then why would they approach Wolf differently?

I think we all know that in reality fans would just be appreciative to see him get a look. And even if he let in 4 on 20 shots like markstrom, he would get a warm reception for his efforts.

And no one would see that outcome as an indictment on his ability or potential.

There are too many holes in the logic of people that take this angle, that don't seem rooted in reality.

This is a better measuring stick for Wolf than mid April nothing games. I'm sure he would prefer to see meaningful hockey as well.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

And there’s people who think covid is a government conspiracy, that doesn’t mean we should take them seriously. The fringe minority are just that, a fringe minority.

Regardless of how many there are. There still are.

And if he did get called up for a non-injury reason and Sutter decided to give him the net the narrative with the media would be that he's the savior. Have him get his promotion to start the season or even call him up after the Flames' fate is decided you don't have that narrative.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Even if Matt Murray were going to be a negative example, there was a lot of lights-out hockey (back to back cups to show for it) before concussions screwed him up.

I guess my point is… if there is no example of a goaltender even close to Wolf coming in at this stage and getting ruined… what’s the foundation for the concern?

Uncertainty? I guess. This just doesn't feel like an environment to ask a rookie to make the difference.

And since I don't think the 22-23 Flames are on the same level as the Penguins in that frame I don't think it's an adequate example.

The questions you have to ask are:

1) Is Dustin Wolf going to make a difference? And, if so, to what extent?

2) Does inserting him into the big club's lineup at this point positively, negatively, or insignificantly affect his development and/or confidence?

My answers:

1) I don't know. Based on his resume I would guess (and hope) it's positive, although I don't think he moves the needle enough to offset the potentially similar, demonstrable negative influences on both Markstrom and Vladar, who have proven themselves as NHL regulars over time.

2) I don't know. Based on the fact established NHLers like Markstrom and Vladar have had their ups and insufferable downs this year I am not betting Wolf's starts or substitutions are going to be positive.

It comes down to what I said earlier in this thread: "If he's not coming to be the saviour but the expectation is to still make noise then there's no need to put pressure on a rookie goaltender. If it's as much of a write off that some people think it is there really is no rush."

I want to bet on an enduring flame and not a flash in the pan, and since the flash is likely a 5 game first round exit as opposed to a potential franchise goaltender I would rather bide the time.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Who do you think in Calgary, a well informed canadian hockey market, is going to expect the 21 year old to be the savior?

Have they expected Pelletier to drive the 2nd line and fix its woes /criticized him for his production to this point?

Right. So then why would they approach Wolf differently?

I think we all know that in reality fans would just be appreciative to see him get a look. And even if he let in 4 on 20 shots like markstrom, he would get a warm reception for his efforts.

And no one would see that outcome as an indictment on his ability or potential.

There are too many holes in the logic of people that take this angle, that don't seem rooted in reality.

This is a better measuring stick for Wolf than mid April nothing games. I'm sure he would prefer to see meaningful hockey as well.

Oh come on now. People aren't just asking for him to be the backup. They want him to be the starter.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

And on the other hand, they won't try a rookie if things are going well here.

If Wolf draws in for Markstrom's impending birth of his child then it's a moot point anyways.

I'm sure you won't be crying when he turns in a promising performance though.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Oh come on now. People aren't just asking for him to be the backup. They want him to be the starter.

They want to see reason for hope in their future.

And secretly, yeah. We all want it. But do we expect it? No.

And that's the point.

[flamesfever]

For me, Wolf represents our team's future. I think if he comes in and underperforms, it dampens our enthusiasm for the future. We would also be perpetuating our tendency to sacrifice the future to get immediate returns.

IMO even if Wolf did come in and perform well, our team is still not strong enough to go deep into the playoffs. I believe we still lack a game changer or two.

Therefore, I believe it would be prudent to start Wolf the first of next year, when most of the players are a little rusty, and he will probably stand the best chance to succeed.

As for this year, I would lean more on Vladar, until Markstrom starts showing some consistency.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

For me, Wolf represents our team's future. I think if he comes in and underperforms, it dampens our enthusiasm for the future. We would also be perpetuating our tendency to sacrifice the future to get immediate returns.

IMO even if Wolf did come in and perform well, our team is still not strong enough to go deep into the playoffs. I believe we still lack a game changer or two.

Therefore, I believe it would be prudent to start Wolf the first of next year, when most of the players are a little rusty, and he will probably stand the best chance to succeed.

As for this year, I would lean more on Vladar, until Markstrom starts showing some consistency.

Either he's good enough for the big league or he isn't

Taking a peak under the cover isn't going to change what wolf is or becomes.

You're at least giving yourself the outside chance he can help you, vs running with the same broken carousel

The Flames aren't falling more than 1 spot in the standing anyways so the bedard chatter is useless.

Hard to believe these are fan takes tbh. Do you not want hope/excitement? Then what do you watch for

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

I'm sure you won't be crying when he turns in a promising performance though.

When he does yeah, I will be happy like everyone. Whenever that is and whether it's his first start or not.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

They want to see reason for hope in their future.

And secretly, yeah. We all want it. But do we expect it? No.

And that's the point.

Eventually we all do want him to be the starter. Some are just more patient than others.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Either he's good enough for the big league or he isn't

Taking a peak under the cover isn't going to change what wolf is or becomes.

You're at least giving yourself the outside chance he can help you, vs running with the same broken carousel

The Flames aren't falling more than 1 spot in the standing anyways so the bedard chatter is useless.

Hard to believe these are fan takes tbh. Do you not want hope/excitement? Then what do you watch for

TBH I'm not watching this year as much as I have done in the past. The main reason is the loss of some of my heros, coupled with the continual disappointing losses. Any hope I have for this team is in the future.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Eventually we all do want him to be the starter. Some are just more patient than others.

Patient..

Patiently waiting on him to do what...

Rise to the top of his league & dominate the pro level?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Anyone worried about ruining Wolf by playing him in the NHL, on one of the best defensive metric teams in the league, should have their head checked. If he can't handle the pressure, it would be best to find out now.

I don't think worrying about him is the issue, it's which option is better for him.

Even if he'd be ok after getting humbled in the NHL and bounce back, which option is better?

1) Bring him to the NHL & let him get some NHL experience even though it likely won't be much winning and also will push Markstrom's confidence and value even lower.

2) Let him have a successful season in the AHL and potentially win a Calder Cup, maybe MVP of the tournament, and AHL goalie of the season.

It's fun for us as fans to imagine the 5% chance of a fantasy dream run, but ignoring that for moment and looking at the 2 outcomes with realistic probabilities, which is better?

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Patient..

Patiently waiting on him to do what...

Rise to the top of his league & dominate the pro level?

Get his permanent call up and eventually/hopefully become the starter for a long time. You already knew what I meant though.

[Stanley]

I think it’s hilarious that people still dream up this scenario

[bigrangy]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I don't think worrying about him is the issue, it's which option is better for him.

Even if he'd be ok after getting humbled in the NHL and bounce back, which option is better?

1) Bring him to the NHL & let him get some NHL experience even though it likely won't be much winning and also will push Markstrom's confidence and value even lower.

2) Let him have a successful season in the AHL and potentially win a Calder Cup, maybe MVP of the tournament, and AHL goalie of the season.

It's fun for us as fans to imagine the 5% chance of a fantasy dream run, but ignoring that for moment and looking at the 2 outcomes with realistic probabilities, which is better?

Por que no los dos?

Paper him down at the trade deadline and he can go back to the AHL at any point. He’s got AHL Vezina locked up already tbh.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Stanley

I think it’s hilarious that people still dream up this scenario

Well. Desperate times...

And Wolf isnt just any ordinary goaltending prospect. He's in an exceptional class with maybe two other G prospects on the planet.

But maybe the Flames don't have that urgency. You just figured that they might show a little more after investing ~200 million last summer with the intent of capitalizing on the front end of some of these aging players' contracts

4 points back now..

Anybody feel either of the two nhl options have another gear in them?

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Regardless of how many there are. There still are.

And if he did get called up for a non-injury reason and Sutter decided to give him the net the narrative with the media would be that he's the savior. Have him get his promotion to start the season or even call him up after the Flames' fate is decided you don't have that narrative.

“The media” in this town are a bunch of cheerleading Company men.

Besides, any true fan of this team knows there’s no saviour.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Has there ever been an example comparable to Wolf's to begin with?

Logan Thompson is probably the closest comparable, and while it's been impressive it's still early.

Jake Allen is also recent, and he levelled off pretty hard.

Matt Murray might be the best total case study and that's not entirely encouraging.

Definitely not a "worry" from the outset, but not exactly a demonstrable example either.

Some notable goalies and when they broke out:

Patrick Roy debuted at 20 after being a 3rd round pick.

Brodeur became the full time starter at 21.

Fleury was starting games as an 18 year old.

Belfour won the Calder at 25.

Joseph had been a backup for two years when he became starter at 24.

Price was in the NHL at 20.

Quick - 23

Rask - 22

Kiprusoff - 27

Rinne - 26

Luongo - 21

Murray - 21

Gibson - 66 starts by 22

Hart - 20

22 is a fine age to give a man his first taste of NHL action.

[madmike]

Originally Posted by Stanley

I think it’s hilarious that people still dream up this scenario

The Flames are going nowhere under the current goaltending scenario, so why not? Markstrom and Vladar are flat out not good enough.

I’d rather give Wolf a shot than have the Flames sit on their hands, do nothing and miss the playoffs because they have incompetent goaltenders.