Yeah, its a giant mess. If anything with long term in mind, such as a new, expanded Palestinian border and international enforcement wont work or the political capital just isn't there, then I really don't know. Business as usual I suspect.
Seems like outcry for either side to do the right thing isnt working and neither side apparently can be trusted to do the right thing.
Last edited by 2Stonedbirds; 05-17-2021 at 12:03 PM.
Yeah, its a giant mess. If anything with long term in mind, such as a new, expanded Palestinian border and international enforcement wont work or the political capital just isn't there, then I really don't know. Business as usual I suspect.
Seems like outcry for either side to do the right thing isnt working and neither side apparently can be trusted to do the right thing.
I'd say it's even harder in that it's not always clear what the right thing to do is.
Israel wants security. They have warred with essentially all of their immediate neighbors (sometimes more than once) since 1948. The Palestinians, via Hamas, are being used as pawns by Iran to destabilize, and if possible, destroy Israel. So how do Israeli's find security? They can try to make peace with Palestinians as they did with Egypt and Jordan but Iran, via Hamas, does not want peace with Israel. The other alternative is to fortify their defenses, which often applies as being offensive as we've seen in this latest attack and in the Settlements that are being used as a buffer zone.
Palestinians want autonomy. They have been victims of more powerful forces for decades. From the Ottomans, to the British, to the Israelis and Hamas. The corruption of the PLO and subsequent influence of Hamas and other thugs would prevent anyone actually interested in peace with Israel from trying to step up and run the 'country'. They can't leave as they're treated as second-class citizens in other parts of the ME, often with even fewer rights than in Israel. They're stuck in poor conditions, under the thumb of a powerful neighbor.
So what's the right thing?
Israel/Palestine is just the focal point for the Middle East in general. It's where the proxies fight their wars without firing a shot. It's where global superpowers flex their muscle without getting their hands dirty. Until there is a larger stability in the region peace will not be attainable. To reach a level of stability would mean the fall of regimes that thrive on instability: Syria and Iran. The world has tried to do that on a number of occasions via Desert Storm and subsequent wars and it's just made the situation more volatile. Another option is to wait until the region organically turns away from the more militant style of Islam. I don't know the stats for orthodox Islam but Islam in general is the fastest growing religion in the world. I think we can assume that the number of radical Muslims is growing at roughly the same rate. Another option is to flood the region with money, jobs, infrastructure and a general increase in quality of life. Perhaps this will turn the Yemen's into something a little closer to a UAE and there will be less chance of radicalization.
It's a mess and will be for a long time.
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And by creating a giant multinational peace keeping coalition, do we not entice countries such as Iran to throw their hat in the ring? Outside of providing arms and funding at least.
Agreed, its a giant mess and no easy solution is apparent.
it is truly mind boggling to wrap your head around what day to day life must be like tehre. you try and go to work, raise your kids, go tot eh market, while under the specter of violence.
I'd like to think that at some point these groups realize that there is a better way to live - but it seems there area has been in turmoil since i was young enough to watch the news
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Holy f'n christ people.... the false equivalency in this thread is unbelievable.
I know that the Palestinian activists have scored some amazing PR victories in the last 25 years, but this is straight out of Iranian propaganda manuals...
Maybe people should understand what this conflict is actually about, written by a Palestinian living in Jerusalem:
A major issue I'm seeing is that many posters see Israel as having made the original sin, and, therefore, the Palestinians can do no wrong. The anti-Israeli side also ignores whatever facts don't fit that narrative.
Firstly, the history of Jerusalem does not support the idea that a thriving Arab city existed there until 1949 when a Jewish state was thrust upon them:
The city was very small. There has been a Jewish majority there since the mid-1800s. I don't know how you could possibly look at the history of Jerusalem and the demographics over the last 200 years and conclude there is only the basis for a single group living there.
Secondly, in 1949, the Arabs invaded Israel with the intent of removing all the Jews. They then made things very difficult for the Jews in the Muslim and Arab lands, who now number about 5 million people, with 3.5 million living in Israel. I'm sorry but 5 million people don't just abandon their lives and property unless something awful is going on. Their persecution is far from a "myth". It's horrid and very well documented. Ironically enough, if it hadn't occurred Israel would likely not have the Jewish population to sustain itself as a Jewish state.
A lot of this persecution continues to plague these refugees, and it's not their "choice" either. In this video, at about 1:50, you have a man of clearly middle eastern appearance. A mob of Arabs decides his accent is Jewish and then tries to stone him to death:
Without a doubt, the Palestinians are bearing the brunt of the latest round of violence, and I 100% see why people are holding Netanyahu responsible for it. However, you can also say that you disagree with Hamas. It's not a situation where you have to side one side is 100% right and the other wrong.
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And by creating a giant multinational peace keeping coalition, do we not entice countries such as Iran to throw their hat in the ring? Outside of providing arms and funding at least.
Agreed, its a giant mess and no easy solution is apparent.
Iran would have nothing to do with peacekeeping or throwing their hand in on a peace process. Keeping Israel occupied with Palestine is strategic in nature as it keeps Israel from focusing on Iran, and it also bleeds Israel in terms of soldiers and equipment and munitions. Plus Israel would absolutely balk at Iranian participation since Iran has been pretty clear about killing Israel and pushing it into the ocean.
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Iran would have nothing to do with peacekeeping or throwing their hand in on a peace process. Keeping Israel occupied with Palestine is strategic in nature as it keeps Israel from focusing on Iran, and it also bleeds Israel in terms of soldiers and equipment and munitions. Plus Israel would absolutely balk at Iranian participation since Iran has been pretty clear about killing Israel and pushing it into the ocean.
Of course they wouldn't. But a stable situation there goes against their interests, which may entice them to draw in for anything BUT peaceful reasons, that was my point.
For sure, and while its one thing to supply weapons and funding, the state of Iran (among others) may be enticed to officially enter and create a conflict with any international peace keeping/militarized borders. Which would suck for pretty much everybody.
No clue how you "fix" this perpetual chicken/egg situation. It may take outside influence to get it done, my concern is any outside influence could possibly draw in other influences, countries such as Iran. Just not in the subtle manner they have been employing.
A major issue I'm seeing is that many posters see Israel as having made the original sin, and, therefore, the Palestinians can do no wrong. The anti-Israeli side also ignores whatever facts don't fit that narrative.
Firstly, the history of Jerusalem does not support the idea that a thriving Arab city existed there until 1949 when a Jewish state was thrust upon them:
The city was very small. There has been a Jewish majority there since the mid-1800s. I don't know how you could possibly look at the history of Jerusalem and the demographics over the last 200 years and conclude there is only the basis for a single group living there.
Secondly, in 1949, the Arabs invaded Israel with the intent of removing all the Jews. They then made things very difficult for the Jews in the Muslim and Arab lands, who now number about 5 million people, with 3.5 million living in Israel. I'm sorry but 5 million people don't just abandon their lives and property unless something awful is going on. Their persecution is far from a "myth". It's horrid and very well documented. Ironically enough, if it hadn't occurred Israel would likely not have the Jewish population to sustain itself as a Jewish state.
A lot of this persecution continues to plague these refugees, and it's not their "choice" either. In this video, at about 1:50, you have a man of clearly middle eastern appearance. A mob of Arabs decides his accent is Jewish and then tries to stone him to death:
Without a doubt, the Palestinians are bearing the brunt of the latest round of violence, and I 100% see why people are holding Netanyahu responsible for it. However, you can also say that you disagree with Hamas. It's not a situation where you have to side one side is 100% right and the other wrong.
I will play devils advocate a bit here, I say Devils advocate because while I think the Balfour declaration was a massive mistake made in typically arrogant racist British fashion its a done deal and so pointless to argue its merits these days beyond examining its affect on the Palestinians mind set if you will
That said there were and are still plenty of places where there are large Jewish populations, Montreal, New York, Golders Green come to mind, that wasnt then or is now a justification morally for making them a Jewish homeland against the will of the locals that weren't Jewish, it wasnt Britain's place to give away what was a Muslim state to create a Jewish state and I doubt Canadians would be particularly happy if China decided to carve off half of BC as a Chinese state just because a lot of Chinese people live in Vancouver.
But obviously history marches on and the existence of Israel is done deal, to me arguing about that is pointless, the question for me is practical, I dont think Israel can survive in the long run without peace, nor is it moral for them to treat the Palestinians in this way.
Israel's current policy depends to a large degree on the US being the worlds policeman and letting them do pretty much what they want which is a short sighted view, China is taking over and I doubt will care to defend a Jewish homeland if it causes a rise in extremist Islam, on top of this at some point in time the hopelessness of the Palestinian cause is likely to cause some despairing militant arab youth to source a few pounds of radioactive dust and blow themselves up on a hill somewhere and just let the wind destroy vast swathes of land.
This all seems so shortsighted of Israel frankly, now is the time they should be making peace for their own sake in the long run
I will play devils advocate a bit here, I say Devils advocate because while I think the Balfour declaration was a massive mistake made in typically arrogant racist British fashion its a done deal and so pointless to argue its merits these days beyond examining its affect on the Palestinians mind set if you will
That said there were and are still plenty of places where there are large Jewish populations, Montreal, New York, Golders Green come to mind, that wasnt then or is now a justification morally for making them a Jewish homeland against the will of the locals that weren't Jewish, it wasnt Britain's place to give away what was a Muslim state to create a Jewish state and I doubt Canadians would be particularly happy if China decided to carve off half of BC as a Chinese state just because a lot of Chinese people live in Vancouver.
But obviously history marches on and the existence of Israel is done deal, to me arguing about that is pointless, the question for me is practical, I dont think Israel can survive in the long run without peace, nor is it moral for them to treat the Palestinians in this way.
Israel's current policy depends to a large degree on the US being the worlds policeman and letting them do pretty much what they want which is a short sighted view, China is taking over and I doubt will care to defend a Jewish homeland if it causes a rise in extremist Islam, on top of this at some point in time the hopelessness of the Palestinian cause is likely to cause some despairing militant arab youth to source a few pounds of radioactive dust and blow themselves up on a hill somewhere and just let the wind destroy vast swathes of land.
This all seems so shortsighted of Israel frankly, now is the time they should be making peace for their own sake in the long run
IMO the Balfour Declaration and the meddling of outside powers is an overrated factor in the establishment of Israel. By the time the Balfour Declaration was made, there was already a Jewish population in Jerusalem of 30k, out of a total population of 60k (with the other 30 being split down the middle Christian/Armenian and Muslim.
The English also did not do all that much fighting for either side. They tried to play policeman for a while, but eventually just said F it and left the region to its own devices, as it descended into total chaos. The result was a state of total warfare, with victims on both sides, and Israel coming into existence.
I also don't see China as a nation that has loyalties. They are likely to do whatever is in their best interest at the time. The USA, however, does remember being crossed, and would consider choosing China over them a large transgression.
Israel is more than capable of defending itself from its neighbours. The notion it’s some kind of protectorate of the U.S. is unfounded. Yes, it gets military aid from the U.S., but so do Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The aim is deter Iran from taking over the region.
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Israel is more than capable of defending itself from its neighbours. The notion it’s some kind of protectorate of the U.S. is unfounded. Yes, it gets military aid from the U.S., but so do Egypt and Saudi Arabia. The aim is deter Iran from taking over the region.
Israel is wholly dependant on the US, 30% of its exports are to the US which is absurd for a country in the middle east, it is purely a function of the grants and priority treatment Israel gets from the US, it is in every respect a client state
Last edited by afc wimbledon; 05-17-2021 at 05:10 PM.
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Israel is wholly dependant on the US, 30% of its exports are to the US which is absurd for a country in the middle east, it is purely a function of the grants and priority treatment Israel gets from the US, it is in every respect a client state
Israel has essentially been embargoed by most of its neighbours, so of course it’s not going to trade locally.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Israel has essentially been embargoed by most of its neighbours, so of course it’s not going to trade locally.
Granted but you would normally expect the EU to be any middle eastern or North African countries biggest market, Israel exports about 1.5% to Canada, the 30% is a direct result of its position as a US dependant
Granted but you would normally expect the EU to be any middle eastern or North African countries biggest market, Israel exports about 1.5% to Canada, the 30% is a direct result of its position as a US dependant
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The EU is Israel's biggest trade partner, accounting for 29.3% of its trade in goods in 2020
