26 y.o. New Brunswick woman shot and killed by Police

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Acey

You're happy to bold the 410%, I just don't think Canadian police are 410% more evil than the beloved European police.

I made absolutely no mention of evil. My posts in this thread have been pointing out that other OECD countries with similar socioeconomic demographics to Canada, all of which also have violent criminals, do not have anywhere close to the same number of incidents where police use lethal force. I find that very curious. If I were a policymaker, I'd very much want to look into what those police forces are doing differently and if there are any lessons for Canadian police.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I made absolutely no mention of evil. My posts in this thread have been pointing out that other OECD countries with similar socioeconomic demographics to Canada, all of which also have violent criminals, do not have anywhere close to the same number of incidents where police use lethal force.

Do we agree that the thing most likely to get you killed by police is a firearm?

I'm not even disagreeing with the idea that North American police kill people too much, I just think the "numbers" being used to prove it here are bogus. You casually say "which also have violent criminals", when in fact it's more accurate to say "Canadians kill each other with guns at a rate SEVEN TIMES higher than Norway".

The 410% does not account for this, so Canadian police are in fact not 410% less competent than Norwegian police.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by woob

This thread is really bizarre. Posters are literally providing real world examples of approaches to policing that are orders of magnitude better than both Canada and the US, and people are still digging in their heels trying to justify why our policing has to be the way it is. Why?? Just bizarre.

Its not bizarre if you actually use your brain and realize police in Canada and the US are put in far more dangerous situations. Especially in the US they have more guns than people FFS. I don't think anyone is saying nothing can be improved but

"Be like such and such a country"...its apples and oranges

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Acey

Do we agree that the thing most likely to get you killed by police is a firearm?

I can neither agree nor disagree with that statement without evidence either way. I'd have to see the stats on police killings in Canada (and other comparable nations) and what percentage of those involved the suspect wielding a firearm vs. a knife vs. another type of weapon vs. being totally unarmed.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Its not bizarre if you actually use your brain and realize police in Canada and the US are put in far more dangerous situations. Especially in the US they have more guns that people FFS. I don't think anyone is saying nothing can be improved but

"Be like such and such a country"...its apples and oranges

The US is a country where people can (legally) walk up and down the sidewalk with assault rifles to make YouTube videos about their constitutional right to do so.

How can you even put that in the same conversation as anywhere else.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Acey

The US is a country where people can (legally) walk up and down the sidewalk with assault rifles to make YouTube videos about their constitutional right to do so.

How can you even put that in the same conversation as anywhere else.

Uh, you are proving my point? US is by far the hardest country to be a cop in. Canada is no picnic though being 5th in guns per capita. Norway in the UK rank much lower on that list.

[blender]

Originally Posted by woob

This thread is really bizarre. Posters are literally providing real world examples of approaches to policing that are orders of magnitude better than both Canada and the US, and people are still digging in their heels trying to justify why our policing has to be the way it is. Why?? Just bizarre.

Because to acknowledge that there is something wrong here requires us to acknowledge that our way of life here is fundamentally flawed which is a destabilizing and uncomfortable thing.
People don't deal with that well, so it is easier to rationalize and equivocate than to face reality.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Uh, you are proving my point?

I'm agreeing with you. I mean, in general. How can any person put the US in the same conversation as others regarding gun violence statistics given the laws.

[woob]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Its not bizarre if you actually use your brain and realize police in Canada and the US are put in far more dangerous situations. Especially in the US they have more guns than people FFS. I don't think anyone is saying nothing can be improved but

"Be like such and such a country"...its apples and oranges

What a prime example of what I was talking about.

People are not saying be like this country, they're saying hey maybe we can look into what they're doing here and modify what we're doing. Or hey, they're able to de-escalate situations a lot more than we seem to be able to, what training are they going through to be able to get that skillset and put it to use?

Maybe next time drop the "if you actually use your brain" part?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Its not bizarre if you actually use your brain and realize police in Canada and the US are put in far more dangerous situations. Especially in the US they have more guns than people FFS. I don't think anyone is saying nothing can be improved but

"Be like such and such a country"...its apples and oranges

As wood said, this is looking at like situations.

How many guns Canada has is irrelevant to how lethal forced is used when a gun isn’t present.

[Itse]

Hey Bent Wookie, since you seem to be the ultimate arbitrator of what is true and realistic.

Is it your opinion that it really doesn't matter how many people the police kill on duty? If not, how much of an outlier would Canada have to be to get you to support change? Where's the line between "this is fine" and "this is not acceptable", for you, in numbers of people dead. Rough number will do, or some comparison point.

And if you do or did support the idea that the Canadian police should make some reforms, what kinds of reforms would you suggest?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As wood said, this is looking at like situations.

How many guns Canada has is irrelevant to how lethal forced is used when a gun isn’t present.

There is a greater likely hood of a gun present in all situations

again things can be improved for sure but I think the data is flawed

[Acey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

How many guns Canada has is irrelevant to how lethal forced is used when a gun isn’t present.

Yes, which is why it's equally irrelevant to cite statistics for all incidents as the majority would involve firearms.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I have and it's really not that hard, give me a Glock 22 from 21 feet and I'll guarantee at least one leg shot out of 15 rounds, the added stress for me would be killing someone I didn't have too.

Thanks for helping me prove my point.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Acey

Yes, which is why it's equally irrelevant to cite statistics for all incidents as the majority would involve firearms.

Nope. You can take a look at this page: https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/long...m/deadly-force

It’s got year-by-year data up to 2017, so not perfect and not quite up to date, but it says in 2017 33 armed people were killed by deadly force, only 10 had firearms. In 2016 34 armed people were killed by deadly force, 4 had firearms.

While the unsorted data doesn’t make the picture as clear as it could be, assumptions like “the majority would involve firearms” aren’t founded on anything.

Even aside from that, and I’m not sure how many times this needs to be said for it to be clear, the issue is how they handle the same situations as other countries which kill less people. Let’s just say we’ll excuse all uses of deadly force when a gun is involved for arguments sake. They still kill more people, they still need to improve.

This situation is about a lady holding a knife. The issue remains how the police do not handle situations like this well enough, and the comparisons are to illustrate how much better they COULD handle the SAME situations.

[OMG!WTF!]

How many guns Canada has is irrelevant to how lethal forced is used when a gun isn’t present.

I don't think that's true at all. Without question private gun ownership, and gun control laws correlate with police kill rates in the US. State by state and as a country the correlation is very strong. I can't find the chart now but police kill rates around the world are also correlated with private gun ownership. Canada has a lot of guns relative to the rest of the world. But we also have a massive spill over of guns and culture from the US. We also have been militarizing our police a la the US. I just think it's impossible to disassociate guns with police killings. You treat more situations as if there is a gun present when the possibility of more guns being present is real.

[PepsiFree]

Treating a situation as if there is a gun present is one thing. Using lethal force when you’ve established there isn’t is another.

Moore wasn’t killed standing on her balcony, holding a knife, because she might have had a gun. What are we even talking about?

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Treating a situation as if there is a gun present is one thing. Using lethal force when you’ve established there isn’t is another.

Moore wasn’t killed standing on her balcony, holding a knife, because she might have had a gun. What are we even talking about?

You were talking about a bigger picture than this one incident...police related fatalities in Canada. I think that's worth talking about. Now you're talking about this one incident. Which I don't think is a great conversation because no one knows what really happened yet. When those two red necks were filmed shooting Ahmaud Arbery, I can say for sure they're guilty af. People are making that call here without crystal clear video evidence based on the fact that we have a similar systemic problem with racism and policing in Canada. It looks pretty bad for the cop for sure, but I honestly don't know. I've only read the same story over and over.



One thing that is true for all police related shooting deaths in Canada is that a gun is always involved. I haven't seen any stats for how many times someone goes for a cop gun in an attempt to turn themselves armed from unarmed. But it's a factor in those numbers for sure. If someone charges at you and you're pointing a gun at them it's likely they're trying to take it away from you. Or at the very least it's possible they might try to get it away from you.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

One thing that is true for all police related shooting deaths in Canada is that a gun is always involved.

What do you mean by this? If it’s that cops always use guns in police related shooting deaths, obviously, if you mean a gun is somehow always involved with the victim (whether possessing one or going for one) that is not true and every bit of evidence suggests otherwise.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What do you mean by this? If it’s that cops always use guns in police related shooting deaths, obviously, if you mean a gun is somehow always involved with the victim (whether possessing one or going for one) that is not true and every bit of evidence suggests otherwise.

No. I tried to edit to say.."at least one gun is always involved in police shooting related deaths". But I cant edit that post for some reason.