Who in your opinion is the most overrated player of all-time?

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Some of my personal picks:

Vlasic
Quick
Toews
Klefbom
Boeser
Marleau

Agree with all but Marleau. He has been a model of offensive consistency for years. 562 goals and 0.69 points per game (nice!) with the first 3rd of his career in the dead pick era. Also scored at least 20 in 15 of his 22 seasons which is equal to Yzerman.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I saw all those players play. Lidstrom was better than all of them as an all around player. I have no issue with him being considered the 2nd best defenseman all time because he was IMO.

I saw the first guys I listed play too. Pronger won a Hart Trophy and led two lesser teams to the SCF almost by himself, especially Edmonton. His prime was shorter but his heights were higher. He was a physical specimen that could dominate games single handedly. Lidstrom was more of a cerebral player who relied on positioning and smarts to get by but his hockey sense was second to none. I'd say it depends on your preference for style of player but for his absolute prime, I'm taking Pronger if I'm building a team, not even thinking about it.

Bourque was a beast in his own right, winning the Norris five times and almost winning a Hart. Leads all dmen in history in scoring, goals assists points. Was pretty good in his own end too but not Lidstrom. But Lidstrom cant touch Bourque offensively, who all he did was score 80-95 points year after year after year.

I don't know, I feel there are compelling arguments to take any of those three guys but the separation for me is that Pronger and Bourque didnt play on as stacked of teams. They were also much more dynamic, bigger game breakers, just my opinion. I would've loved to see Lidstrom on an average team to see how he would've done. I mean, every pp he went out on had 4 or 5 Hall of Famers on it.

[Erick Estrada]

There were a lot of stacked Wings teams for sure but the back half of his career the Wings had basically Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg as their franchise players and they still kept making the playoffs right up to his retirement.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

There were a lot of stacked Wings teams for sure but the back half of his career the Wings had basically Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg as their franchise players and they still kept making the playoffs right up to his retirement.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg were awesome though but they weren't Yzerman and Fedorov that's for sure, those there still some damned good red wings teams he played on at the end there, no doubt partially thanks to his own presence on them. I will concede it was crazy how Lidstrom seemingly aged like fine wine. He would probably play on our top pair today if he laced them up. Super long prime that wasn't quite as 'good' or a shorter prime that was more impactful... it depends on preference really.

It is like the lindros vs Forsberg debate. For a couple years Lindros was the best player in hockey, dominating games like no one before or since, but we all know how that ended. Forsberg's candle never burned as bright as lindros's but he was better for longer, much better career. Still, if I'm building off absolute prime I'm taking guys who flew higher. The lidstrom vs Bourque/Pronger debate isnt as pronounced, but kind of the same principle to me.

[Poe969]

If we're going off of strict talent, Lidstrom was head and shoulders above the rest. Pronger was more physical and made guys scared of him which made his D amazing and his offense was still pretty damned good but not like Lidstrom. Bourque was better offensively but not as good on the D side. Lidstrom was a solid 8 or 9 on everything. He wasn't physical because he didn't need to be. Bourque would be likely at the top of my offensive Dmen and likely the first guy I put on my PP while Pronger would be the first guy I put on my PK but I would still call Lidstrom my #1 guy if those 3 were on my team.

[Strange Brew]

Pronger at his very best was dominant. Not many defensemen have carried a team on their back through a season or playoffs the way he did.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Rick Nash. Now first of all 437 goals in just over 1000 games isn't anything to sneeze about but his career highs were 42 goals and 79 points and it always kind of grinded my gears when the media salivated over this guy for international play and he at times overshadowed Iginla who was by far the better player. It seemed like he was always discussed as being an elite player when he was a really good regular season player on a lot of bad teams. When he did play for playoff teams he never delivered as 18 goals in 89 playoff games is very mediocre at best for a supposed goal scorer.

I'm not sure if he is overrated. I watched him play and when he does show up, he's like a Mario Lemieux - big guy with great hands - ton of skills. But man, the guy just doesn't have heart to win it all. He proved himself to be worthless in the playoffs with the Rangers.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Recently and at the upcoming FA deadline... Taylor Hall.

Trudat! How the hell did he win the Hart is still incomprehensible. The guy was kinda useless as an Oiler and he's always hurt.

Also, to this day, it still boggles my mind that Jose Theodore won the Hart over Iggy! WTF?

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by blender

Re: The Orr vs Gretzky debate.
It is instructional to consider that the argument for Orr tends to revolve around the notion that he fundamentally changed the game. While this may be true, I believe that a similar case could be made for Gretzky. His impact on the game was also transformative. Coaching against him led to the development of some of the modern schemes still in use today. Also, if you strip away all the qualifiers and equivocations that get mixed up in these kind of debates Gretzky was simply the greatest player statistically and it is not even close whether you adjust for era or whatever.

I think there is a bit of Gretzky fatigue at play here especially as the years roll by and the memories get hazy, and he has seemed to become a bit of a caricature of himself. All of a sudden he is lucky to be playing in the era he played in; he played against bad goalies, defensemen, etc. Are you kidding me? He was a skinny kid that came into the best league in the world at a time when clutching and grabbing and goonery was near its peak and he turned the league on it head every season for a decade. He re-wrote the whole record book, made every player around him better, was ulta-clutch, won it all multiple times. What more do you want?
Orr was great and its nice that there are people carrying a torch for him; he won't ever be forgotten. But there is only one player who is the greatest to ever play the game.
If you want to argue that anyone other than Gretzky was the best you NEED a qualifier: Era, Injuries, Linemates, Team, Quality of competition, Intangible impact on the game itself, How loathsome Glen Sather is...If you want to argue for Gretzky there is a mountain of pure statistical data you can refer to.

Full disclosure: I'm a lifelong Flames fan that grew up on a steady diet of Gretzky's Oilers. I hated him as much as I've ever hated any player.

Heh, I grew up in that era as well and hated Gretzky and the Oilers - actually envied them. For anyone to say Mike Vernon is overrated - that's a joke. He's the one who actually came in - as a standup goalie as opposed to Patrick Roy - and pretty much took over the goalie position from Reggie Lemelin. I would say he's the one who turned the tide against the Oilers in their dynasty.

Anyways, I watched quite a few of the old footages of the Flames and Oilers and I have to say Gretzky and a lot of the Oilers were the best and to watch a guy like Coffey skate so smooth - wow. Also, to watch the goalies in that era as compared to now - Grant Fuhr and Mike Vernon were special. I think the only bad thing you can say about Gretzky is that he wasn't really a good skater, but he was always able to get his shots in the right place that made him special. Like most people say, he's got eyes in the back of his head. For people to say that Coffey, Messier, Anderson, and even Kurri as being overrated is also a joke. Kurri continued scoring another 50 goals after Gretzky left. He's not like a Chris Kunitz riding the coat tails of Crosby.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Jagr was amazing but personally I put him below Phil Esposito (as well as some others).

Jagr had 5 Art Ross trophies. Espo had 5 also.
Espo has 2 Hart trophies, Jagr has 1.
Neither has a Conn Smythe.
Espo led the league in goals 6 times while Jagr never has.

And in career PPG, Espo is 10th while Jagr is 25th.
Career Goals per game is not even close as Jagr has 39 more goals but in 451 more games.

Jagr has him on longevity big time and was definitely a flashier and more exciting player. And being consistently great over a long period does count for alot.

But Espo gets the nod for me.

Espo is an interesting case, as his offensive explosion coincides with two things, 1) Bobby Orr enters the league and 2) the NHL expands from 6 to 14 teams during his peak.

Espos in year 4 of his career scoring 60 points when Nikita is scoring 97.

His first year in Boston the league goes from 6 to 12 teams and his goal totals explode from 21 to 35. Ken Hodge sees a similar explosion. No longer playing behind Hull and Mikita has a definite impact. Orr is injured though and only plays half a season.

The next year Espo absolutely explodes, becoming the first NHL player to break 100 points...but 2 other players also do it by the end of the year.

His 76 and 76 year, incredible...with two more expansion teams added to the Eastern division. Bobby had 102 assists.

I really hope I'm not appearing to try to run down esposito, but I think the Orr factor is significant. Like the Lemieux and Gretzky factors are for their teammates.

Jagr on the other hand when I look at what he was doing, there was always a guy there with him but it wasn't often the same guy. When he put pointed Sakic by 121 to 118, no other players in the league hit 100. When he loses the scoring race to Thornton in 2006 125 to 123, the next closest player is Ovechkin at 106. In 99 when he scores 127 points the next closest player is Selanne at 107 and the only other player to break 100 points is Kariya with 101.

That's why I think he's the king of that tier.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by Poe969

If we're going off of strict talent, Lidstrom was head and shoulders above the rest. Pronger was more physical and made guys scared of him which made his D amazing and his offense was still pretty damned good but not like Lidstrom. Bourque was better offensively but not as good on the D side. Lidstrom was a solid 8 or 9 on everything. He wasn't physical because he didn't need to be. Bourque would be likely at the top of my offensive Dmen and likely the first guy I put on my PP while Pronger would be the first guy I put on my PK but I would still call Lidstrom my #1 guy if those 3 were on my team.

The bolded statement intrigued me. So I did a little digging. I made a simple graph comparing their offensive output and adjusted for the goals per game of each season. I shifted the years so that the graph would overlap, so rookie years are together not both of their 99-00 seasons for example. It was a lot closer than I would have thought. And notable was that Bourque was holding stronger in his last few years than Lidstrom did.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by codynw

I wouldn't say that no player has ever done. Maybe nobody has ever done it better, but there are a few other players who had that complete package. One of them has his jersey number hanging in the Saddledome.

Yes, that was my point.

EDIT: Huh, I thought I originally phrased it differently. Thanks for making that distinction.

[cannon7]

Pierre Turgeon

[logan_izer10]

Mats Sundin

[Phaneufenstein]

Draisaitl.
If the Oilers ever make playoffs, his game and ability to put up points will suffer the most.

[Johnny Makarov]

Oh did anyone say Bobby Ryan yet? He might be the most overrated athlete of all time

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

Draisaitl.
If the Oilers ever make playoffs, his game and ability to put up points will suffer the most.

I was on the Draisaitl is overrated train for a while there but he just keeps getting better. Is it possible to be overrated while also being a top 5/10 player on the planet?

[Phaneufenstein]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

I was on the Draisaitl is overrated train for a while there but he just keeps getting better. Is it possible to be overrated while also being a top 5/10 player on the planet?

I think he's a good offensive player that won't transfer the same success to the post season.

[The Yen Man]

I'm going with Shane Doan. They make it sound like he's Joe Sakic or Stevie Y in terms of being a great captain. Guy has good numbers for a normal player, but his stats are mediocre for a great player.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

I think he's a good offensive player that won't transfer the same success to the post season.

Hope you're right. I personally am done betting against him. I'm just happy that the Oilers are so terrible outside of their two franchise players that it doesn't really matter how good those two do. It's a team game thank god haha. With two 130+ point players, you would think they would get 110 points easy and run away with the crappy pacific division but they are fringe at best which is pretty laughable.