Fire Brad Treliving

[rotten42]

After reading this thread I feel like I was actually in a bad Oiler's thread on HF.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Agreed that we haven't seen results with Treliving's moves so far. After several years of Brad the team just finished a season that was boring as hell, the team moved backwards in the standings well out of the playoffs and has now traded away a young star defenseman entering his prime for two younger players that we hope will develop to reach Hamilton's level in a year or two. When are we going to see results for Tre's moves?

Not sure that I'd go with "star"...."decent young defenseman" maybe. But, like J Bo he had only one gear. Lazy with the puck, lazy and often inept with his stick (think penalties) and not a stud in the corner. Well, wait. What else is a D-man supposed to do? The only thing he did well was score - and that was good, but it doesn't make him a star.

I think we've seen some of the results from Tre's moves - what has confused the issue was a really poor coaching choice, which he now thinks he's rectified. Again, we are waiting on those results to form a judgement. Perhaps all will now come together with the coach he "really" wanted.

[Vinny01]

I for one am a Treliving fan and it is fun to be a fan of this team at draft time. He has swung blockbuster deals in 3 of the last 4 drafts and made a trade at all 5 drafts he has been for.

The Flames core is extremely young. He inherited Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano, Brodie, Backlund who are all core players. To that core he has added Tkachuk, Hamonic, Lindholm, Hanifin. The hope is one last player he inherited (Jankowski) and drafted (Bennett) price to be part of that core.

I do like the look of this team long term if Lindholm, Hanifin, Bennett can take the next step in addition to our 3 forward stars. All of these players are under 25.

When the team made the playoffs he tried to accelerate things by making the Hamilton and Hamonic trade. The Hanifin deal dials back the rebuild a little bit which was the right decision.

[saXon]

Originally Posted by Dan403

Stupid thread is stupid.

Stupid premature thread is stupid and premature.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by saXon

Stupid premature thread is stupid and premature.

Speak for yourself.

I, for one, think Treliving definitely deserves to be fired right now for his utter failure to address all the holes the team has in the 2020-21 season. I mean, look at it! Only seven players under contract! Not a single asset in the system from the 2019 or 2020 drafts! It's like he just didn't bother to exercise the picks or something.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Not sure that I'd go with "star"...."decent young defenseman" maybe. But, like J Bo he had only one gear. Lazy with the puck, lazy and often inept with his stick (think penalties) and not a stud in the corner. Well, wait. What else is a D-man supposed to do? The only thing he did well was score - and that was good, but it doesn't make him a star.

I think we've seen some of the results from Tre's moves - what has confused the issue was a really poor coaching choice, which he now thinks he's rectified. Again, we are waiting on those results to form a judgement. Perhaps all will now come together with the coach he "really" wanted.

Fair enough if you don't want to call him a star, but a top 20 scoring defender at his age is more than just a decent player.

Either way, my views of Treliving are not specifically about this trade. I just don't see the team results as positive under him. The team had a terrible season playing boring hockey under the coach that Treliving chose. A team that I feel is more difficult to cheer for while also having lower rankings in the standings actually is the result of three years with Treliving as the GM.

[Beninho]

Treliving has made mistakes, all GM’a do. He’s also extremely proactive compared to other GM’s and is constantly trying to improve the roster. Big Tre fan, still this season is his biggest yet.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by blender

this thread looks very stupid now.

:d

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Hamilton did have huge trade value. I think people disappointed in the value we got back are underrating how valuable Hanifin and Lindholm are. I mean these kids were some of CAR's potential franchise players in their rebuild. Players like that rarely become available. But with their crazy new owner there was a unique opportunity to pick some important pieces off their roster.

I view acquiring Hanifin as being similar to NSH getting Jones or TB getting Sergachev or even when we originally got Dougie. Tougher to find a good comparable for Lindholm moving but I think a lot of people are guilty of looking at his points so far and thinking that's all he is vs what he will be next year and at his peak.

There's a very good chance we just got two, young core players. Flames have only drafted top 5 once? Well now we just picked up another couple top 5 picks. I know some people hate the fact we bring up their draft position but again its a good representation of their potential and upside. These kids aren't busts, nor are they big disappointments. They are right on track for being impact NHLers, young core players. They fit right in with the age group of a lot of key players.

So how does one reconcile the fact that Carolina just gave up on two young core players then? It's rather amusing that people are bending over backwards to try and paint Hamilton as a problem to justify dealing him without considering that there is no way the Hurricanes should have wanted to move Lindholm or Hanafin. Certainly not both. Never mind that these are players that need to take steps forward just for us to be even with where we were last year.

[Shazam]

Carolina didn't want to pay them.

I thought it was a terrible trade from the Hurricanes' POV other than the cap savings.

Ferland ain't resigning there.

[Resolute 14]

But Carolina is willing to pay mega problem child Dougie Hamilton nearly $6 million for the next three years.

[djsFlames]

This shouldn't be getting bumped at all.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So how does one reconcile the fact that Carolina just gave up on two young core players then? It's rather amusing that people are bending over backwards to try and paint Hamilton as a problem to justify dealing him without considering that there is no way the Hurricanes should have wanted to move Lindholm or Hanafin. Certainly not both. Never mind that these are players that need to take steps forward just for us to be even with where we were last year.

Sounds like they wanted to keep both players but this owner is looking t shake things up and negotiated very hard which lead to an impass and then the trade.

The Flames come offering a star player and a crash and bang winger which are 2 of the biggest needs for the Hurricanes and they make the deal. By all accounts this deal came together when the Hurricanes decided they couldn’t sign their players to the contracts they wanted and the Flames could not sign Fox.

Maybe other people are justifying the Hamilton stuff but I have been saying it since the season ended.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

But Carolina is willing to pay mega problem child Dougie Hamilton nearly $6 million for the next three years.

That's one player. They saved a lot of cap with this trade.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So how does one reconcile the fact that Carolina just gave up on two young core players then? It's rather amusing that people are bending over backwards to try and paint Hamilton as a problem to justify dealing him without considering that there is no way the Hurricanes should have wanted to move Lindholm or Hanafin. Certainly not both. Never mind that these are players that need to take steps forward just for us to be even with where we were last year.

It's pretty obvious the Hurricanes (Dudley/Waddell) don't feel Lindholm is worth the money he was expecting on his next contract which was why he was put up for offers. I expect with Hanifin they were probably staring at paying him similar money to Hamilton so why not get the better player in Hamilton if you are going to pay $5+ million anyway? I doubt ether player was a problem but the Hurricanes didn't see them as core players moving forward and feel they got the best player in Hamilton and maybe another core piece with Fox as well as a nice complementary winger in Ferland. Easy to see why they would make this trade if they weren't sold on Lindholm. Flames fans painting Hamilton as a problem or saying he's terrible defensively are doing the typical Canadian fan bashing players on the way out so none of this is surprising especially seeing how many fans willfully jumped on the Eric Francis article bandwagon that guys like Monahan, Gaudreau, Hamilton, etc were okay with losing.

I feel this is a trade that can work for both teams as if Hanifin can maintain 40 point pace and Lindholm improve on last season and become a 50 point player the Flames should be better or at the very least no worse. Hamilton will be put in a situation in Carolina where he's going to probably put up close to career numbers and if Ferland can get more consistency he could be a nice surprise for them. Fox is probably the X factor as if he becomes a star then the trade probably doesn't look as good but I imagine he was never going to play for the Flames so his value in a trade would diminish as the Flames got closer to losing him for nothing.

[Travis Munroe]

At the start of next season, the trade will be
Lindholm and Hanifin for Hamilton and the rights to Fox without any guarantee.

Fox sounds as if he wants to play the free agent card. Tre must have tried everything possible to keep him and then made sure we got a return. Smart GMing. Imagine CP if Fox left the flames for nothing.

Ferland is going to play his year in Carolina and either chase the biggest payday, or be back in Calgary or Winnipeg. His style of play means he should look to cash in on someone willing to pay 4m on 5+ years vs coming "home" on a discount.

Hamilton's trade value is cut by over 30% at the end of this year regardless of how great his season is with the ability to take 12 teams off his trade list. Carolina better get on the phone to sign Freddie or Dougie will be headed for FA in a few years.

Pending Tre signs both these guys long term, I am extremely happy with the return. When I first heard it, I thought Tre had lost his mind. When reviewing stats, projections and the likeliness of each player being with their new team in 1-2-3 years, Tre looks to have traded guys that were leaving town for guys he can lock up long term. Younger guys with higher ceilings.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's pretty obvious the Hurricanes (Dudley/Waddell) don't feel Lindholm is worth the money he was expecting on his next contract which was why he was put up for offers. I expect with Hanafin they were probably staring at paying him similar money to Hamilton so why not get the better player in Hamilton if you are going to pay $5+ million anyway? I doubt ether player was a problem but the Hurricanes didn't see them as core players moving forward and feel they got the best player in Hamilton and maybe another core piece with Fox as well as a nice complementary winger in Ferland. Easy to see why they would make this trade if they weren't sold on Lindholm. Flames fans painting Hamilton as a problem or saying he's terrible defensively are doing the typical Canadian fan bashing players on the way out so none of this is surprising especially seeing how many fans willfully jumped on the Eric Francis article bandwagon that guys like Monahan, Gaudreau, Hamilton, etc were okay with losing.

I feel this is a trade that can work for both teams as if Hanafin can maintain 40 point pace and Lindholm improve on last season and become a 50 point player the Flames should be better or at the very least no worse. Hamilton will be put in a situation in Carolina where he's going to probably put up close to career numbers and if Ferland can get more consistency he could be a nice surprise for them. Fox is probably the X factor as if he becomes a star then the trade probably doesn't look as good but I imagine he was never going to play for the Flames so his value in a trade would diminish as the Flames got closer to losing him for nothing.

I don't agree with the bolded part. Just because they wouldn't sign them, doesn't mean they didn't think they are core pieces. Core pieces get traded all the time. Gretzky got traded. They just liked Hamilton as a core piece more than Lindholm and Hanifin.

Hamilton IS terrible defensively and i've been saying this well before he got traded. The giveaway/takeaway differential says it all. No one on the Flames was even close to that, not even the hated Brodie. You want to know something interesting about this stat? No Carolina Hurricane defensemen had a lower differential than -10; this Hurricanes team was lauded as playing a possessiono style game and it certainly looks like it from this stat. I doubt Peters would have been happy with a defensemen with a -40 differential; that goes against everything of what possession hockey is, and you really don't need a whole bunch of muddled advanced stats that have not been proven to tell you that.

It is now TWO NHL management teams who have watched Hamilton day in and day out and have concluded that he's not as good as his perceived value. One of these management teams is responsible for building a power house in the East.

I really don't think the off-ice is that big an issue to the Flames; as not every player has to be super happy in their surroundings. If they saw what I saw from Hamilton in the defensive end, that's enough reason to deal him.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

But Carolina is willing to pay mega problem child Dougie Hamilton nearly $6 million for the next three years.

Dougie won't last the season there.

Even if he does stay, the two the Flames got back are going to get $5-6 mil each? And both will get long term contracts.

Cheap owners are cheap.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's pretty obvious the Hurricanes (Dudley/Waddell) don't feel Lindholm is worth the money he was expecting on his next contract which was why he was put up for offers. I expect with Hanifin they were probably staring at paying him similar money to Hamilton so why not get the better player in Hamilton if you are going to pay $5+ million anyway? I doubt ether player was a problem but the Hurricanes didn't see them as core players moving forward and feel they got the best player in Hamilton and maybe another core piece with Fox as well as a nice complementary winger in Ferland. Easy to see why they would make this trade if they weren't sold on Lindholm. Flames fans painting Hamilton as a problem or saying he's terrible defensively are doing the typical Canadian fan bashing players on the way out so none of this is surprising especially seeing how many fans willfully jumped on the Eric Francis article bandwagon that guys like Monahan, Gaudreau, Hamilton, etc were okay with losing.

I feel this is a trade that can work for both teams as if Hanifin can maintain 40 point pace and Lindholm improve on last season and become a 50 point player the Flames should be better or at the very least no worse. Hamilton will be put in a situation in Carolina where he's going to probably put up close to career numbers and if Ferland can get more consistency he could be a nice surprise for them. Fox is probably the X factor as if he becomes a star then the trade probably doesn't look as good but I imagine he was never going to play for the Flames so his value in a trade would diminish as the Flames got closer to losing him for nothing.

The bolded is the part that trips me up with this deal. I agree with you that they need to be better for us to be even or marginally improved for this season. Consequently, your argument is basically that we got more expensive as a result of this trade, but not necessarily better. And some people wonder why the sentiment surrounding the trade is what it is.

The big question for me with Lindholm is where he plays, and with whom. If he's willing to play RW, then he's basically Gaudreau and Monahan's wingman by default. And with those two, he could probably put up a lot of points. But if he (and/or Peters) insists that he's a C, then what? You pretty much have to play him with Tkachuk or he's going to be trying to drag players around the ice. And in that case, we've only made our weakness at RW worse.

July 1 is going to be quite interesting, as we're going to have to overpay to deal with the mess at RW that Treliving has completely failed to address to this point, despite spending heavy coin to add players to areas of strength.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So how does one reconcile the fact that Carolina just gave up on two young core players then? It's rather amusing that people are bending over backwards to try and paint Hamilton as a problem to justify dealing him without considering that there is no way the Hurricanes should have wanted to move Lindholm or Hanafin. Certainly not both. Never mind that these are players that need to take steps forward just for us to be even with where we were last year.

Pretty straight-forward with Lindholm. The contract negotiations didn't go well, so they looked to use him as a piece to change things up. It is so common to see one team give up on a young player, and then they blossom with a new opportunity - precisely what many of us fear will happen with Bennett. And Lindholm is WAY closer to putting it all together than Bennett is.

Hanifin is downright baffling. The kid has ALL the tools to be a #1 defenseman. He is 21 years old. He has more upside at 21 than Hamilton did at that age - or at worst, at least as much. You never give up on a 21 year old defenseman, especially with that kind of talent. New ownership, and looking for a shake up and a big splash (Hamilton has cache). IMO, giving up on Hanifin this early is an absolute disaster of a decision by Carolina. And Hanifin will be the reason that, down the road, this trade will be perceived as a win or big win for the Flames.

Hopefully we can dig a little deeper than the old "the other team is trading them, so they must suck" argument.