My point is that you can use all those catagories to group types of sports together. Not so with "e-sports". It is a category that separates it from other sports,and to which no other sports applies. Which is why I am asking for another example of an e-sport. If there is no other sports that can apply to that category, why is there a category? More aptly, if it can't be compared to other sports, is it a sport?...
I think more than anything this entire discussion is a clear reflection of how the definition of the English word "sport" is currently undergoing a transition. Words don't have meanings, they have usages. And in this case the usage of the word "sport" is definitely changing to mean something more than it did a decade ago. Whether you like it or not, if "e-sports" are not already a "sport" (and I don't see why not, since the word is already in common usage), then it very shortly will be. It's the nature of language. It changes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I don't know, I guess it seems to me that the idea of sports is athletic in nature, and e-sports is actually the antithesis of that. Again, I actually have no problem with vids, or people that make a living doing that. Good on em. But this concept of calling a video game a sport, and the people that play them an "athlete" cheapens the term, at least to me.
I'm not a professional athlete, but I played football, rugby, baseball, and swam competitively as a kid. What I took from those activities was a sense of team work, discipline, fair play and dedication. I imagine that there is some of the same principles that could be derived from people competting in competitive gaming. I guess what I dislike most that it's possible to be a part of a team that never actually meets or competes in person and misses out on the social education that I experienced on actual sports teams. The long bus rides, the dirt being mashed into open cuts, sweat stinging your eyes as you go to war against your opponent. Supporting each other on the equally long bus ride home when you come up short. To me, specifically, thats probably the biggest part of my issue.
But now that I have my own kids, when they are of age, they will absolutely be enrolled in sports to learn those core beliefs that have carried me a long way in this life. When they come home with a permission slip to be part of their high school e-sports team, I will re-evalute my thoughts on the subject then. For now, all I can use to set my postion is my personal experiences.
The idea of sports is athletic in nature, but your definitions don't negate it being a sport.
Do I consider sitting on my ass playing Splatoon a sport? Absolutely not, and I'm sure that E-Sport enthusiasts will be right there to support you in that.
Fishing was brought up and is a great example. There is a large group that consider it a sport, but will recognize that drunkenly drifting in a boat hoping to catch a carp isn't what they consider a sport either. It's the purpose behind the game that makes it a sport. Just because untalented people can do that same thing in their free time doesn't negate their athleticism doing the same thing.
But at the end of the day, if it's "an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment" you're only asserting your personal definitions to argue against it being a sport. You like watching the videos, but can you say that your skill is a match to theirs? If it's not, how do you explain the differences between you two? I'm sure the answer will be 'practice', but what has their practice afforded them? It's higher skill, and that skill is a form of athleticism.
If you don't think people in E-Sports don't also see their sport as a sense of team work, discipline, fair play and dedication then you're not educating yourself well enough on what they do. There are a lot out there that are grinding through the ranks, travelling far distances and networking with people trying to build a team and make it to the bigs. By your definitions, what category should I put a privileged tennis player who rode in a Mercedes to every tournament and never made a single friend?
Speedwalking cheapens the term of athleticism and sport to me, but I still can't argue it isn't a sport. It's just not one that I value very much in the realm of great athletes.
I would encourage my kids (God help us all...) to get into sports for the same reasons you list. I will likely be a parent hoping to get them into some of the more high-tempo sports - but I recognize that is a preference of my own. If my kid is showing great skill at E-Sports, still maintains activities that keep their bodies healthy and are able to balance life outside of sport I really don't care what it is. I've seen kids let hockey take over their lives when it was pretty clear they weren't even touching the OHL just as I'm sure there are a ton of parents out there worried that their kids will fail at life aiming for an E-Sports dream.
I just don't get why it's so important that it's not a sport. It's not my idea of an athlete either, but neither was this:
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... Says the guy attacking the biggest growing entertainment industry based on a word.
I have no issue with the industry, just the dilution of the word "sport" and "athlete". Besides, based on how well they are growing, my lack of support or personal feelings on the matter doesn't seem to be holding them back.
I don't know, I guess it seems to me that the idea of sports is athletic in nature, and e-sports is actually the antithesis of that. Again, I actually have no problem with vids, or people that make a living doing that. Good on em. But this concept of calling a video game a sport, and the people that play them an "athlete" cheapens the term, at least to me.
This is interesting to me because it suggests that you have attached some intrinsic value to the word (or concept) of an "athlete." By doing so you are also, possibly inadvertently, devaluing other leisure activities or forms of entertainment for not conforming to an ideal you have about "athletes."
Quote:
I'm not a professional athlete, but I played football, rugby, baseball, and swam competitively as a kid. What I took from those activities was a sense of team work, discipline, fair play and dedication. I imagine that there is some of the same principles that could be derived from people competting in competitive gaming. I guess what I dislike most that it's possible to be a part of a team that never actually meets or competes in person and misses out on the social education that I experienced on actual sports teams. The long bus rides, the dirt being mashed into open cuts, sweat stinging your eyes as you go to war against your opponent. Supporting each other on the equally long bus ride home when you come up short. To me, specifically, thats probably the biggest part of my issue.
I think this also feeds into your own value-perception of what constitutes "sports," which does not necessarily equitably reflect the entire gamut. I am an older guy, and as such there are social dynamics which are really important and meaningful to my kids that drive me crazy. By the same token, there are other dynamics and truisms which I value, but which my kids find to be irrelevant. Whether we like it or not, our world is changing. Our means and methods of "social education" and interaction are changing dramatically. It is neither becoming something better or worse, it's just the way our world works.
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But now that I have my own kids, when they are of age, they will absolutely be enrolled in sports to learn those core beliefs that have carried me a long way in this life. When they come home with a permission slip to be part of their high school e-sports team, I will re-evalute my thoughts on the subject then. For now, all I can use to set my postion is my personal experiences.
What if your kids have no desire to play any sports? What if they don't wish to be enrolled? What if they would prefer to spend all that time playing video games within their huge social networks?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
Watching the amazing goal scored by Gareth Bale in last week's champions league final will always trump watching some dude named FifaKing187 do the same thing using a digital Bale on a screen. I understand the interest in gaming -- I love the medium as well, but its just not the same as watching highly trained athletes do what they do best.
You will never hear about an esports players parents having to drive him to the rink at 5 in the morning through blizzards, having the discipline to maintain a healthy diet and training routine for years, dealing with physical pain and injury in the same way.
And then creating magic in a real physical space when the stakes are high -- not recreating magic with a canned animation by pressing a button faster than the opponent. Its just not the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovaz
There are narratives just as compelling in eSports if you take the time to look for them.
For example, IM.Mvp is a great story. He grew up incredibly poor, but was able to put food on the table for his family through his tournament winnings in SC2. Towards the end of his career he suffered from a neck condition that caused severe wrist pain and made his hands go numb during games. But he couldn't take time off to get it treated because he was basically the sole breadwinner for his family. So despite being unable to practice and having to withdraw from a bunch of tournaments, he managed to battle through it to win his 4th GSL (the SC2 equivalent of Wimbledon or the US Open).
And you absolutely can create magic in a video game, again if you look in the right places. There's no canned animation for perfect unit control in starcraft, or perfect aim in Overwatch or Counterstrike. That's raw, incredible skill that only a handful of people in the world possess.
I love both video games and traditional sports.
But you're saying an amazing headshot kill in CSGO is the equivalent to Bale's magical goal when the stakes could not be higher??
That particular esports rags to riches story isn't that impressive when you compare it to countless rags to riches stories in traditional sports.
I am the furthest thing from a victim there is, in this matter and any other. [...]
You know that we can still see the posts you write:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev
Wait, so I make an assertion, and people take me to task over it, I ask for examples while supplying my own, people take me to task over my examples, again,while not supplying there own, and I'M a dick? Get bent.
[...]
You were definitely painting yourself as a victim for being taken to task over your assertion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev
[...]Learned that playing sports. What I have managed to do through all this discourse is to avoid name calling and belittling. In fact, I haven't once made it personal. So yea, I will absolutely call out someone who does. Get a grip.
[...]
Don't pat yourself on the back too hard for managing basic respect when people are discussing opinions. You also told someone to get bent a few minutes ago, and ended your soapbox defence telling me to get bent. C'mon man, none of this is more than a discussion of opinions. If there's one person in this room that took it personally, it's you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesFanTrev
[...]And by take me to task, I was referring to HockeyGuy15 attacking my list of extreme sports examples, while failing to provide his own list of e-sport examples. By the way, "taking me to task" isn't a negative allegation, it means that someone was asking me to defend said list. You need to step back and get some perspective.
Also, you weren't called a name. You were told how you were coming across in what you were writing. No one asked you for a list and the list you made was a condescending way to prove your point. No one owed you a rebuttal list. You created a list to prove a point, and I'm not sure still what that point was.
And if 'taking me to task' is an allegation I misunderstood, the fault of that rests squarely with how you communicate it. I've rarely ended a positive allegation with 'get bent'.
...That particular esports rags to riches story isn't that impressive when you compare it to countless rags to riches stories in traditional sports.
How many "rags to riches" stories are there still in modern, traditional sports? I would warrant an infinitesimal few because modern professional sports is becoming more and more elitist. With the current climate that requires endless added specializations, numerous coaches, expensive camps and tournaments in order to be successful professional sports is becoming increasingly more unachievable to those without means.
My 14-year-old is a pretty good soccer player, and he has set his sights on a university scholarship or even the possibility of a professional career. We are under constant pressure to pay for private training sessions, camps, coaches, etc.—much of which we are simply unable to afford. I am painfully aware of the very real possibility that my and my wife's own shortage of disposable income could very well stand between my son and his dream.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
But you're saying an amazing headshot kill in CSGO is the equivalent to Bale's magical goal when the stakes could not be higher??
That particular esports rags to riches story isn't that impressive when you compare it to countless rags to riches stories in traditional sports.
There are amazing plays in esports with equally high stakes. Comparing Bale's magic goal to any old headshot kill is like comparing xPeke's kassadin backdoor or Faker's 1v1 zed to any old top shelf one-time laser.
eSports have really only been a thing outside of Korea for less than a decade. Of course traditional sports have far more rags to riches stories.
Riot Games put together a brief documentary on competitive League of Legends a couple of years back. If anybody is interested in learning more about why so many people see the overlap between esports and traditional sports, I suggest you give it a watch.
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How many "rags to riches" stories are there still in modern, traditional sports? I would warrant an infinitesimal few because modern professional sports is becoming more and more elitist. With the current climate that requires endless added specializations, numerous coaches, expensive camps and tournaments in order to be successful professional sports is becoming increasingly more unachievable to those without means.
My 14-year-old is a pretty good soccer player, and he has set his sights on a university scholarship or even the possibility of a professional career. We are under constant pressure to pay for private training sessions, camps, coaches, etc.—much of which we are simply unable to afford. I am painfully aware of the very real possibility that my and my wife's own shortage of disposable income could very well stand between my son and his dream.
Oh, I dont know man, thats a hell of a longshot to begin with but I dont think your inability to pay is going to be the defining characteristic of your son's soccer career, however it may go.
The true fact of the matter in soccer is that if you're good enough they pay you to train, the rest is just a guilt-trip for parents.
Been there and done that on both sides.
I wouldnt worry about it if I were you and certainly wouldnt blame yourself for not paying for extra training.
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But you're saying an amazing headshot kill in CSGO is the equivalent to Bale's magical goal when the stakes could not be higher??
That particular esports rags to riches story isn't that impressive when you compare it to countless rags to riches stories in traditional sports.
To different people, sure. There are a ton of people that I know that will be very familiar with their favourite CSGO player and haven't a clue what Bale is up to.
If you showed them both clips back to back, they would definitely tell you they are more impressed with the headshot than a jock booting a ball at a net the size of my old apartment.
I think that's why I love hockey so much. I've never really been that impressed with soccer, TBH, but I'm not engaged enough in the sport to understand the nuances and skill that drove the play to what it became. I ignorantly walk through life assuming that anyone on the street I show a clip to will agree with me that hockey is the pinnacle of athleticism. The speed, physicality, teamwork, awareness, precision and power you need to have to be great at hockey is unmatched in sport - to me. But we both know that I'm not going to win over many many people in this world.
I'm sure you can imagine the same from an E-Sports enthusiast.
There are narratives just as compelling in eSports if you take the time to look for them.
For example, IM.Mvp is a great story. He grew up incredibly poor, but was able to put food on the table for his family through his tournament winnings in SC2. Towards the end of his career he suffered from a neck condition that caused severe wrist pain and made his hands go numb during games. But he couldn't take time off to get it treated because he was basically the sole breadwinner for his family. So despite being unable to practice and having to withdraw from a bunch of tournaments, he managed to battle through it to win his 4th GSL (the SC2 equivalent of Wimbledon or the US Open).
And you absolutely can create magic in a video game, again if you look in the right places. There's no canned animation for perfect unit control in starcraft, or perfect aim in Overwatch or Counterstrike. That's raw, incredible skill that only a handful of people in the world possess.
So basically you are celebrating someone's mouse and keyboard skills because nothing is occurring in real physical space. No ships are being landed and no shots are actually taking place. Basically its a mouse control competition. You are saying that mouse control competitions are as compelling as physical sport. That's your opinion but let's be real about what is actually taking place vs what is going on in the NHL or any major sports league.
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A few weeks after crashing head-first into the boards (denting his helmet and being unable to move for a little while) following a hit from behind by Bob Errey, the Calgary Flames player explains:
"I was like Christ, lying on my back, with my arms outstretched, crucified"
-- Frank Musil - Early January 1994
His grandfather was killed by Serb forces, the house was burned and the family fled to the coastal town of Zadar, some 40 kilometres (19 miles) away.
"I heard about a little hyperactive boy constantly playing with a football in the corridor of a refugee hotel, even going to sleep with it," said Josip Bajlo, who was then the first-team coach at the First Division club NK Zadar, where Modric began to make a name for himself as a brilliant player.
The situation is reflected in Brazil's current World Cup squad, many of whom had extremely difficult lives growing up. The early life of Daniel Alves, for example, could hardly be further removed from the majestic splendour of the Camp Nou in Barcelona. Alves grew up in the harsh sertao (the parched back lands) of the state of Bahia. "I'm really proud of my life story," he told Brazil's TV station Globo recently. "I know how hard my life was. I know about real life." As a child, Alves would help his father, a poor farmer, pick melons. "He would get up at 5am to work, so I would get up at 5am to work too," said the player.
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So basically you are celebrating someone's mouse and keyboard skills because nothing is occurring in real physical space. No ships are being landed and no shots are actually taking place. Basically its a mouse control competition. You are saying that mouse control competitions are as compelling as physical sport. That's your opinion but let's be real about what is actually taking place vs what is going on in the NHL or any major sports league.
It's not just mouse and keyboard skills. It's coming up with and executing a strategy within the constraints of the virtual space in which the competition is taking place.
Just like how we don't celebrate hockey because of their skating, shotting and puck handling skills. We celebrate because of the whole game. Saying video games is all just mouse and keyboard is like saying hockey is the same as the skills competitions. You're missing the whole point of the game.
I don't doubt that it still happens, but I am inclined to think that these are more and more becoming exceptions. I should like to see actual data about this: how much have socioeconomic conditions contributed to professional sporting success, and are these numbers trending up or down?
*EDIT* It didn't take me much time at all to find some information which actively supports exactly what I have been saying:
" Indeed, the fruits of America’s fixation with youth sports are largely concentrated among children with means: According to data recently released by the Aspen Institute’s Sports and Society program, household wealth is the primary driver of kids’ athletic participation. Compared to their peers whose families make more than $100,000, children ages 6 through 12 whose family income is under $25,000 are nearly three times as likely to be “inactive”—meaning they played no sport during the year—and half as likely to play on a team sport even for one day. “Sports in America have separated into sports-haves and have-nots,” said Tom Farrey, the executive director of the Sports and Society program...
"Also pushing poorer kids out is the professionalization of kids’ sports: Time reports that the business of kids’ sports has grown 55 percent since 2010, and is now a $15.3 billion industry. Driving that growth is the perception that a child’s athletic achievement might improve her college prospects, lead to an athletic scholarship, and lend some prestige to the family name. Well-off-enough parents invest in specialized camps, leagues, equipment, and travel teams, while children from families without the financial resources or time—competitive kids’ games are often played across state lines, devouring weekends for parents as well as players—fill out dwindling town leagues. On top of these factors, schools with shrinking budgets are dropping physical education or requiring kids to pay for their school teams. Seventy percent of kids leave sports entirely by age 13."
Moreover, I would also tend to think that within the world of anonymous video gameplay that this is a much more equitable field, and that there is a higher likelihood of a kid establishing for himself a professional gaming career despite his social and economic limitations and shortcomings.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
