Ontario Election thread

[White Out 403]

Can you imagine driving drunk into a telephone pole... Then your friend drives the car safely to a garage...and then blaming your friend for the bill? That's what this is. Totally intellectually dishonest.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Can you imagine driving drunk into a telephone pole... Then your friend drives the car safely to a garage...and then blaming your friend for the bill? That's what this is. Totally intellectually dishonest.

You're right, that is what that post is. I can barely parse it. Is the Alberta NDP the friend in your analogy? Seriously? Your view of reality does not come close to aligning with most people's, I can tell you that much. I didn't even know there were NDP supporters whose glasses were this rose-coloured.

[White Out 403]

Always happy to read your opinions. Thanks!

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

Can you imagine driving drunk into a telephone pole... Then your friend drives the car safely to a garage...and then blaming your friend for the bill? That's what this is. Totally intellectually dishonest.

Feel free to tell me what part of that was wrong.

From every piece of literature/news articles/opinion pieces I have read on the subject, those are the real and true numbers.

So who is being dishonest?

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Feel free to tell me what part of that was wrong.

From every piece of literature/news articles/opinion pieces I have read on the subject, those are the real and true numbers.

So who is being dishonest?

Like most complicated issues in life it's the context that matters. It's like how Fox News was going berserk at Obama during his Presidency for the crappy economy after the Republicans were in charge for the stock market crash. Hell they were responsible for the damn thing with all their regulations. But it's super easy to make a giant mess, get unelected and then blame the new guys.

[transplant99]

So in other words, you cannot really dispute the numbers posted.

As expected.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Feel free to tell me what part of that was wrong.

From every piece of literature/news articles/opinion pieces I have read on the subject, those are the real and true numbers.

So who is being dishonest?

I think the point of his post was that the debt doesn’t come close to being a sufficient look at “responsibility.”

Pre-NDP, we had a conservative government that was one of the most wasteful governments this province has ever seen. They squandered riches, had multiple incidences of corruption and spending gaffs, and single handedly ruined this province to a level that got Conservatives voted out of Alberta, a Conservative stronghold, while voting in the NDP, in a province where people still view the Alberta NDP as some socialist anti-Alberta conspiracy. They insured that nobody, given the economic conditions, could fix this province.

Now the way out of the conservative mess is complex, and I don’t necessarily give NDP any credit to date, I don’t think they’ve done a good job. But I also know that they’ve tried to right the ship, which is more than we can say about the Conservative government that outright scammed money out of the Albertan people and blew every advantage their same party spent years creating.

I don’t know, I don’t look at 70 Billion in debt and think “You know who can fix this? The ‘responsible’ party that put us in debt when money was actually coming in.”

It kind of seems like we’re screwed either way.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by transplant99

70+BILLION in debt 2 years from now. 3 separate and distinct credit downgrades. All while instituting the single largest tax in Alberta history.

You and I have vastly different definitions of what being responsible means.

BIG NUMBERS. I know they’re big because you put the billion in caps. Alberta has gone through a deep recession caused by a massive drop in oil prices, and is poised to come out of it fairly well all things considered.

70 BILLION - Albertans are projected to still have the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in Canada despite the capslock.

Credit downgrades - Credit agencies are not big fans of supply side economics, that’s true.

Biggest tax increase in life - Albertans have been undertaxed severely for a long time. I’m actually pleasantly surprised by Notley’s restraint in this area as Albertans continue to enjoy an effective tax burden in the bottom 2 in Canada. (Ignoring for a moment the whole environmental thing.)

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

BIG NUMBERS. I know they’re big because you put the billion in caps. Alberta has gone through a deep recession caused by a massive drop in oil prices, and is poised to come out of it fairly well all things considered.

70 BILLION - Albertans are projected to still have the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in Canada despite the capslock.

Credit downgrades - Credit agencies are not big fans of supply side economics, that’s true.

Biggest tax increase in life - Albertans have been undertaxed severely for a long time. I’m actually pleasantly surprised by Notley’s restraint in this area as Albertans continue to enjoy an effective tax burden in the bottom 2 in Canada. (Ignoring for a moment the whole environmental thing.)

Are you including the Territories?

If so, Alberta's rates are behind both Nunavut and Yukon at every income point.

Also, Alberta's tax rate is higher than Ontario until you reach income of greater than $100,000.

And our tax rate is higher than BC until an income of $140,000 (those are individual not family)

The Alberta advantage is gone, except for higher incomes, and is marginal even then.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

..... to a level that got Conservatives voted out of Alberta, a Conservative stronghold, while voting in the NDP, in a province where people still view the Alberta NDP as some socialist anti-Alberta conspiracy.

The only reason the Alberta NDP formed a government was due to them benefiting from a split vote between the PC and the WildRose parties. They are what is known as an accidental government.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

The only reason the Alberta NDP formed a government was due to them benefiting from a split vote between the PC and the WildRose parties. They are what is known as an accidental government.

That’s pretty much irrelevant. They got enough votes, that’s all that counts. They went from 10% of the popular vote to 40%, had they stayed at 10% the vote split between conservatives and wild rose wouldn’t have mattered, as the conservative would still be in power.

The accidental government thing is a nice Kenney quote, but it doesn’t hold much water when you consider the fact that polls showed more people from the Wildrose and the PC party viewed the NDP as their second option, not the other Conservative party.

At the end of the day, nothing was an accident. The PC party absolutely demolished their own chances of being elected by ruining this province, and they left it for others to clean up only to come back and say “Hey, we’re ready to clean up this mess now!”

If you’re buying it, more power to you. But a government that can’t control debt in a period of high resource income is not a government I trust to control debt when the money isn’t flowing.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

The notion that the NDP was elected by accident is clear revisionist history. By election day it had become pretty clear that they were going to win, so much so that I and others were encouraging people to vote strategically so as to hopefully yield a minority government (there was even a website specifically dedicated to who you should vote for in your particular riding if you wanted that outcome). Whether you saw it as a good thing or as Alberta cutting off its nose to spite its face, it was clearly no accident. Nor is there anything particularly surprising about how it's turned out - this is an NDP government governing like an NDP government. The province got exactly what it voted for. It can vote them out if it doesn't want that anymore, but it's a bit much to start saying "we've been had".

That being said, characterizing the UCP as the same party as the PCs now coming back to the table is pretty disingenuous, and particularly mealy-mouthed considering the tendency of NDP supporters to try to cast the party as carrying on the worst traditions of the Wild Rose. It's either the reincarnation of the old guard corrupt ruling party or the continuation of the backwards nutjobs who can't be allowed anywhere near the premiership. Pick a lane.

Anyway, I thought this thread was about the Ontario election. There's already an Alberta politics thread.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It's either the reincarnation of the old guard corrupt ruling party or the continuation of the backwards nutjobs who can't be allowed anywhere near the premiership. Pick a lane.

Or it’s both, which is what happens when two parties merge. You get the best of both and the worst of both.

The more you know!

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Are you including the Territories?

If so, Alberta's rates are behind both Nunavut and Yukon at every income point.

Also, Alberta's tax rate is higher than Ontario until you reach income of greater than $100,000.

And our tax rate is higher than BC until an income of $140,000 (those are individual not family)

The Alberta advantage is gone, except for higher incomes, and is marginal even then.

There is an article that covers this pretty well in one of the other threads.

It shows significantly lower tax burdan for the top 25 and bottom 25% of incomes for Alberta. It also shows roughly equal for the median with a slight advantage for BC and Ontario. Though in BC's case they ignore health premiums and in both they ignore the PST.

Alberta still wins but it is close.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by tkflames

I think this election reflects the conservative movement as a whole. Those in the upper middle class, let's call it arbitrarily an average household income of $150k plus are tired of paying substantial taxes when they face the same day to day, paycheque to paycheque challenges as many of those making less. This represents a substantial portion of the population and when grouped together with an angry rural group has consistently shown they can win elections. The higher income group doesn't really care what leader is elected as long as conservative fundamentals are maintained.

In Ontario, downtown Toronto is where the rich live. And they're staunch Liberals, leanings towards NDP now with the Liberals out of it. Go to a bistro on Bloor St serving avocado toast, or a parent council meeting in Rosedale, and you won't come across many Conservative supporters.

It's the suburbs where the Conservatives draw their support, often in communities filled with aspirational new Canadians.

Originally Posted by jammies

The American economic solution is apparently to borrow trillions of dollars rather than raise taxes or cut services. So really, all three of the Ontario parties are emulating Trump, they just aren't as good at pretending to be responsible - and nobody cares about *actually* being responsible, that's for chumps who don't want to be elected.

Just ask Jim Prentice. He had the nerve to point out maybe Albertans had themselves for blame for the massive deficit, with our demand for new schools and hospitals, while expecting to pay the lowest taxes in the country. The fantasy of low taxes + high quality services could be maintained so long as billions in energy royalties gushed into the government coffers. Now that the party is over it's time to align our taxes and our spending, but we'll punish any politicians who expects us to take the news like adults.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The Alberta advantage is gone, except for higher incomes, and is marginal even then.

The Alberta advantage was billions in energy royalties bridging the gap between revenues and spending. Now that the windfalls have ended, it's time to do what everywhere else in the world has to do - set income and sales rates at a level that aligns with our expectations of health care, infrastructure, and education.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Just ask Jim Prentice. He had the nerve to point out maybe Albertans had themselves for blame for the massive deficit, with our demand for new schools and hospitals, while expecting to pay the lowest taxes in the country. The fantasy of low taxes + high quality services could be maintained so long as billions in energy royalties gushed into the government coffers. Now that the party is over it's time to align our taxes and our spending, but we'll punish any politicians who expects us to take the news like adults.

In that particular instance I think the issue was less the message and more the delivery. It felt like Prentice didn't take any ownership of the problem... it came off as "it's your fault" rather then "it's all of our fault". Not sure that it would have made a difference because telling folk that it's high time that they have less stuff and make less money is bitter pill to swallow when the only thing your offering in exchange is the nebulous concept of less public debt. Jim Prentice did himself no favours at all.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Now that the windfalls have ended, it's time to do what everywhere else in the world has to do - set income and sales rates at a level that aligns with our expectations of health care, infrastructure, and education.

Pretty much. Folk need to accept some manner of combination of less spending and more taxes.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Now that the windfalls have ended, it's time to do what everywhere else in the world has to do - set income and sales rates at a level that aligns with our expectations of health care, infrastructure, and education.

I think you should add business activity and jobs to the list of aligning our expectations with regards to taxation. If we want gold-plated government services and expect sales, income, carbon, and business taxes to pay for them, we should not be surprised that many businesses would choose to invest elsewhere. Commerce is not a given and if we want a healthy job market Alberta needs to be a competitive place to invest.

As for the Ontario election, I get the anti-Ford sentiment, it seems that the PCs in Ontario keep shooting themselves in the foot by electing leaders that are so poor at seizing the electoral opportunities presented to them. That all said, on the NDP side of the equation, I have no respect for anyone that looks at Ontario's fiscal situation and determines that $16 billion in additional annual spending is an acceptable answer. The Ontario voter is clearly between a rock and a hard place when it comes to selecting who should replace the Liberals.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

That may be, but to me the smart money is on Doug Ford winning a majority anyway, just based on where the PC vote will be coming from.

I get the anti-Ford sentiment too, but my take is that it's the NDP that has shot itself in the foot by failing to take advantage of that.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I think you should add business activity and jobs to the list of aligning our expectations with regards to taxation. If we want gold-plated government services and expect sales, income, carbon, and business taxes to pay for them, we should not be surprised that many businesses would choose to invest elsewhere. Commerce is not a given and if we want a healthy job market Alberta needs to be a competitive place to invest.

As for the Ontario election, I get the anti-Ford sentiment, it seems that the PCs in Ontario keep shooting themselves in the foot by electing leaders that are so poor at seizing the electoral opportunities presented to them. That all said, on the NDP side of the equation, I have no respect for anyone that looks at Ontario's fiscal situation and determines that $16 billion in additional annual spending is an acceptable answer. The Ontario voter is clearly between a rock and a hard place when it comes to selecting who should replace the Liberals.

That's more a function of how you tax than the tax rate. Lowering the corporate rate in the race to the bottom while raising the individual rate to a point that covers the required services will allow you to both maintain services and attract business. However you may have difficulty being electable with a raise tax on the middle class platform.

[CaptainCrunch]

Maclean's one day poll shows a slight drop for the NDP and a slight increase for the PC's, in this poll the PC's strengthen their leads in the 905 area code and in central Ontario.


https://www.macleans.ca/politics/the...-an-advantage/