[News Roundup] Treliving and the trade deadline

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Don't want to get into a Hamilton argument BUT there is a reason that he doesn't get any PK time and I do not think it is lack of conditioning.

Hamilton is as close to a PP specialist as you can get. If you put him with a non-Gio pairing on defense the other team would take advantage.

Nice to have a high scoring d-man.... better to have a high winning team.

Brodie with Gio was and would be better than Gio/Hamilton

Any look at stats of Giordano without Hamilton and Hamilton without Giordano suggest that Giordano is actually riding on his coat tails.

Do I believe that? No.

But they certainly don't suggest that Hamilton is being carried by Giordano in any way.

[Gaskal]

Dougie lacks the intensity that Gio brings, but he gets the job done pretty well.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Dougie lacks the intensity that Gio brings, but he gets the job done pretty well.

I agree with this 100% but I think dougie actually plays better when he's cool as a cucumber. When he gets frustrated and intense he goes out of position and takes dumb penalties.

[EldrickOnIce]

I think having a big 4 is an OK approach. Brodie just isn't good enough to belong in it.
But yeah, currency is draft picks and cap space, and under Treliving it hasn't gone to a scorer (picks for defense, cap for Brouwer).

[Toonage]

Positive scoring will be addressed at the draft. Might mean obtaining and flipping a high pick by moving an established player out but I'm certain it will happen.

[Bingo]

^

Or almost ready to play young forward for almost ready to play young defenseman.

Their balance needs to be addressed.

From the sounds of it, the trade deadline wasn't the time to get that done.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Positive scoring will be addressed at the draft. Might mean obtaining and flipping a high pick by moving an established player out but I'm certain it will happen.

It needs to be addressed.
No help in the system, no help coming in the draft.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Positive scoring will be addressed at the draft. Might mean obtaining and flipping a high pick by moving an established player out but I'm certain it will happen.

With the high prices at the deadline, that might have been a good time to flip an established player for picks to use as currency.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

With the high prices at the deadline, that might have been a good time to flip an established player for picks to use as currency.

For sure, but the Flames are in the midst of a playoff push and weren't going to give up on roster players deemed vital for a chance to get in, that would return a high pick.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

It needs to be addressed.
No help in the system, no help coming in the draft.

What about GAWD-in. He's playing lights out in the W.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Any look at stats of Giordano without Hamilton and Hamilton without Giordano suggest that Giordano is actually riding on his coat tails.

Do I believe that? No.

But they certainly don't suggest that Hamilton is being carried by Giordano in any way.

I honestly think Gio can carry any defenseman he wants to. He may be the best defensive defenseman in the game today and he has shown the ability to prop up others like TJ Brodie and now Hamilton. If I remember correctly, Dougie was really struggling badly on the bottom pair with Jokipakka before he was tried out with Gio.

To Dougie's credit though he's flourished with Gio and the growth of his game has been tremendous. He still has makes his occasional defensive lapses and bad penalties, but those can be forgiven if he continues to score goals and put up points like he has been doing. With our shallow forward depth he's going to be important down the stretch here acting as a 4th forward.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I am not sure that Treliving moves one of his top 4 D. I think it is more likely that Stone moves, and they graduate one of the guys on the farm (most likely Andersson due to the R/L thing).

The cap isn't tied down too much on D. It isn't like the first year of Brent Sutter where there was simply too high of a cap percentage on defence, and it impacted the forwards.

Flames still have a lot of trade chips on the farm/system. Gillies and Rittich are increasing in value, and you still have Parsons. Granted, goalies are usually not worth much, but they still add value in a package.

Then you have Valimaki, Fox, Kylington and Andersson. For a rebuilding team (Ottawa, I am looking at you), I think they can offer a very competitive package for someone like Hoffman. I have no idea what their goaltending depth is (or even what their needs are), but something around:
Stone (I do think that Ottawa would be the team that would most value Stone, as they will need defence and having him could help with any leverage on his brother's re-signing)
One of the D prospects
One of the goalie prospects (hopefully not Parsons)

That helps Ottawa now and in the future. Maybe they will need to add something else. Who knows. For a rebuilding team, that's some good assets. Maybe there is a team out there that needs some cap relief, and gaining a blue-chip prospect and an NHL-ready goalie (backup with starter potential) + no salary coming back will be enough to get a 20-30 goal scoring RHS RW.

I don't think you need to trade a Brodie, Hamonic or Hamilton to shore up the RW spot. You can keep your top 4 D, add a strong RW presence to the lineup, and hopefully it transforms the team a bit. You still have to somewhat gamble that the Jankowski line produces. That's the biggest issue with the team right now. I would keep Ferland on that top line next season (his production warrants it), and use that new RW to help generate offence from the Bennett/Jankowski pairing.

I think the Goaltending is strong.
I think defensively this team is strong (if they retain all top 4)
I think the top line is as good as any in the league.
I think that the 'shut-down' line is rather elite
The first time you reach an 'iffy' is that third line (which should be the second line). Make that line into a bona fide 2nd line, and I think the Flames will be a tough team to beat.

The 4th line isn't as important. You can always find cheap players every off-season, and it is just a matter of figuring it out. I am guessing the 4th line C spot will be Shore's to lose. Lazar has been fine in that role. Hathaway is fine in that role. They are quick and they are physical. I am ok with them doing nothing there (though I say this before watching how Shore fits).

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I am not sure that Treliving moves one of his top 4 D. I think it is more likely that Stone moves, and they graduate one of the guys on the farm (most likely Andersson due to the R/L thing).

The cap isn't tied down too much on D. It isn't like the first year of Brent Sutter where there was simply too high of a cap percentage on defence, and it impacted the forwards.

Flames still have a lot of trade chips on the farm/system. Gillies and Rittich are increasing in value, and you still have Parsons. Granted, goalies are usually not worth much, but they still add value in a package.

Then you have Valimaki, Fox, Kylington and Andersson. For a rebuilding team (Ottawa, I am looking at you), I think they can offer a very competitive package for someone like Hoffman. I have no idea what their goaltending depth is (or even what their needs are), but something around:
Stone (I do think that Ottawa would be the team that would most value Stone, as they will need defence and having him could help with any leverage on his brother's re-signing)
One of the D prospects
One of the goalie prospects (hopefully not Parsons)

That helps Ottawa now and in the future. Maybe they will need to add something else. Who knows. For a rebuilding team, that's some good assets. Maybe there is a team out there that needs some cap relief, and gaining a blue-chip prospect and an NHL-ready goalie (backup with starter potential) + no salary coming back will be enough to get a 20-30 goal scoring RHS RW.

I don't think you need to trade a Brodie, Hamonic or Hamilton to shore up the RW spot. You can keep your top 4 D, add a strong RW presence to the lineup, and hopefully it transforms the team a bit. You still have to somewhat gamble that the Jankowski line produces. That's the biggest issue with the team right now. I would keep Ferland on that top line next season (his production warrants it), and use that new RW to help generate offence from the Bennett/Jankowski pairing.

I think the Goaltending is strong.
I think defensively this team is strong (if they retain all top 4)
I think the top line is as good as any in the league.
I think that the 'shut-down' line is rather elite
The first time you reach an 'iffy' is that third line (which should be the second line). Make that line into a bona fide 2nd line, and I think the Flames will be a tough team to beat.

The 4th line isn't as important. You can always find cheap players every off-season, and it is just a matter of figuring it out. I am guessing the 4th line C spot will be Shore's to lose. Lazar has been fine in that role. Hathaway is fine in that role. They are quick and they are physical. I am ok with them doing nothing there (though I say this before watching how Shore fits).

Stone is recently signed UFA. Almost by definition he is getting paid too much. There is a silver of difference between Ian Cole and Stone with Cole getting the edge as he played a regular role in winning 2 SC.

Cole was worth a 3rd round pick and a second level prospect in the seller's market at the trading deadline.

If someone wants a Cole/Stone kind of #5 D-man in the off season pretty sure the first 3.5x3 would get you Cole for no assets. What would that make Stone's value?


How many teams have such a weak prospect pool that they need to pay 3.5 x3 for a #5.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Stone is recently signed UFA. Almost by definition he is getting paid too much. There is a silver of difference between Ian Cole and Stone with Cole getting the edge as he played a regular role in winning 2 SC.

Cole was worth a 3rd round pick and a second level prospect in the seller's market at the trading deadline.

If someone wants a Cole/Stone kind of #5 D-man in the off season pretty sure the first 3.5x3 would get you Cole for no assets. What would that make Stone's value?


How many teams have such a weak prospect pool that they need to pay 3.5 x3 for a #5.

No.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Any look at stats of Giordano without Hamilton and Hamilton without Giordano suggest that Giordano is actually riding on his coat tails.

Do I believe that? No.

But they certainly don't suggest that Hamilton is being carried by Giordano in any way.

Let Hamilton carry Kulak for a while.

If Kulak/Hamilton is a passable pairing that wouldn't be a disaster caught out against the other teams top line it would make the Flames a lot better.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

No.

By No you mean that Stone has NO value? At least he frees up 3.5M is someone were to take him.

What do think that Stone would have brought in at the trade deadline?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

By No you mean that Stone has NO value? At least he frees up 3.5M is someone were to take him.

What do think that Stone would have brought in at the trade deadline?

I'd say a third at the draft, and perhaps a 2nd at the deadline.

They paid a third to get him, and a 5th to retain him. He's over paid by about a million bucks a season, but that wasn't a bad piece of asset management to me to have a guy able to hold down a role until younger players were ready, and have the ability to move up the roster and play more minutes with Brodie.

It's what good teams do.

Retain assets until they are pushed to the side, not gift spots to players that may not be ready.

If they deem Andersson to be ready this summer I'm guessing they get a third for Stone which isn't bad management to have him around for two years and then get our third back.

[getbak]

From Friedman's 31 Thoughts: https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...als-fell-flat/

Heard Calgary resisted offers for three young defencemen — Rasmus Andersson, Adam Fox and Juuso Valimaki. Maybe they would have considered one for a difference-maker with term, but there was nothing appealing enough.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'd say a third at the draft, and perhaps a 2nd at the deadline.

They paid a third to get him, and a 5th to retain him. He's over paid by about a million bucks a season, but that wasn't a bad piece of asset management to me to have a guy able to hold down a role until younger players were ready, and have the ability to move up the roster and play more minutes with Brodie.

It's what good teams do.

Retain assets until they are pushed to the side, not gift spots to players that may not be ready.

If they deem Andersson to be ready this summer I'm guessing they get a third for Stone which isn't bad management to have him around for two years and then get our third back.

I agree with everything you say. My only problem is posters putting Stone in trade proposals to get a legit top 6 rw back in trade. Sorry not going to happen. If it is Stone part of the trade, then its going to be one of our better, if not best, D prospects going also. Thats why Brodie might be able to get you that Top 6rw without putting in our best prospect.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

By No you mean that Stone has NO value? At least he frees up 3.5M is someone were to take him.

What do think that Stone would have brought in at the trade deadline?

By no, I mean when skate blades cut up the ice, you need a smooth stone to patch it all up and make it easier for everyone else to skate on. That's worth something. How much is debatable, but there are a lot of teams in the NHL that could use a smooth stone to rub all over their bad ice.