Holy cow the top line was dreadful again last night. They've been so good this season I'm not concerned, but it sure was disappointing seeing them mail in a game for an early start on Christmas festivities.
Shoutout to Michael Stone for getting moved up to the second pairing, for some reason, and immediately rewarding that by being on the ice for every Canadiens goal. He simply cannot be given those minutes outside of a dire injury situation. Rasmus Andersson really should have been TJ Brodie's partner last night. Or, go Kulak-Brodie, with Brodie back on his more comfortable side, and one of Wotherspoon or Andersson on the third pairing with Stone. Cody Franson + $2.5 million in cap space with two fewer years of commitment would look good right now and his playing style fits well with the Flames' system.
Likewise, Matt Bartkowski getting minutes is insane. Press box or AHL should be the only two options.
For season ticket holders, there are a handful of games every year where you can make some good cash on the re-sale market. Some season ticket holders choose to sell to opposing fans to make that money, as is their right, but the Flames sure aren't rewarding the season ticket holders who don't.
Flames 2-1 Penguins
Canucks 5-3 Flames
Leafs 4-1 Flames
Oilers 7-5 Flames
Flames 4-2 Canucks
Canadiens 3-2 Flames
__________________ "I think the eye test is still good, but analytics can sure give you confirmation: what you see...is that what you really believe?" Scotty Bowman, 0 NHL games played
I just want to say that Hartley's last season here was absolutely abysmal hockey. Goaltending sucked, but that team had some of the worst possession numbers in the league and wasn't making the playoffs with Hasek in net.
The only good thing we got out of that season was Tkachuk.
Gulutzan is a bad coach, but it doesn't mean Hartley wasn't either.
Last edited by Ashasx; 12-23-2017 at 07:32 PM.
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When people discuss Hartley I think they forget about that last year, focusing only on 14/15
I’m not a big Hartley fan but I don’t think any coach would have prospered with the historically bad goaltending of that season. We will likely never see goaltending that bad ever again over an entire season.
I just don't see enough moxy from this team. Call it what you want, but it is lacking. I can really only guess if it is systems-based or player effort based, but this team doesn't drive the net.
Who here can say this is a fast team? I can't. Yet take a look at the lines, and you find mostly quick players on both forwards and defence. The 4th line is slow, but that's about it.
This team is so intent on coming up the ice as a 5 man unit every time. This is the RIGHT approach if you are facing off against a team that has much more speed, or a team that is playing the trap. Their breakouts have become so predictable that the opposing teams know where to go and stand to limit it.
The Flames need to be much more flexible on their breakouts. Their strength is the backend. They are a mobile bunch that can both skate the puck out of harm's way, as well as make good tape-to-tape passes. I really do think that they should be trying to stretch this team on the ice more and give them more of those passes, which will allow for a faster transition since players are already moving their feet.
The only guy that is always moving his feet on the breakout it seems is Gaudreau, but he is starting from the defensive side of the ice. That's a great zone entry at times, but it shouldn't be used this much. It makes the Flames predictable, and it makes the other 4 guys on the ice slow.
People always remember the long 'stretch pass' under Hartley's system, but it wasn't just that stretch pass. They did do dump-ins at times. Hartley preached "get the puck, and pass it up the ice quickly". Gulutzan is preaching: "Get the puck, hold onto it, set your breakout, and then start moving".
This type of hockey is seemingly resulting in a lot of positive CORSI events. Yeah, they will often make it into the offensive zone, but they are then limited to outside shots or shots from poor angles.
When the Flames do make a power-move to the net, they will get hooked. Why avoid it? They have the worst PP in the league. Giordano and/or Hamilton should be on the first unit PP. They can both pass the puck, have the ability to score from distance, and also can recover decently if the other team gets possession (Giordano in particular - he is just that good on both sides of the puck).
Brouwer is not going to work. Yes, he screens goalies. However, Flames lose possession on the PP since he is not quick enough to beat the defencemen to the puck behind the net, or into the corners. Ferland, Tkachuk or Jankowski - that's the net front presence on this team. Pick two and put them on each unit.
This team plays slow and plays predictable. It is like seeing the exact polar opposite in terms of generating offence from Hartley's days. Hartley's system resulted in a fast team that was difficult to contain, but didn't generate a tonne of CORSI events. What they did seem to generate is a lot more high-quality chances. Let's not even talk about looking at the "high danger chances" being tabled by analytic guys. I swear I watch a game, maybe see the Flames create 2-3 high danger chances where I felt they had a high chance of scoring, and after the game I see "Flames generated 12 high scoring chances vs the opposing team's 8". I don't see it. Sometimes I agree with it, sometimes I don't. I do think that Hartley's system resulted in way more high-scoring chances, and the Flames weren't as stifled as often.
What I find funny is the defensive zone play between the two squads. Hartley's system was all about clogging up the lanes and sacrificing your body. I felt that it wasn't an aggressive enough system like one employed by Minnesota. I haven't keyed-in on how Minnesota play now, but during Hartley's time here, Minnesota had their defence actively challenging the opposition. Even after the opposing team set-up in the zone, the Wild would challenge you to make a play quickly and attack the puck carrier, while doing a decent job of covering the other areas. I thought this is what the big change would be under Gulutzan. In hindsight, I don't think that Hartley's teams were constructed to play the way Minnesota did back then (just look at the rosters), but I do think that Gulutzan's team CAN and should be very effective at it. Instead they rely on clogging lanes and trying to cause turnovers by intercepting the puck of sticks.. or something. Still a fairly passive system defensively overall.
Maybe I am just a simpleton. Maybe as far as a complete moron. What I see that works time and time again in hockey is this: You create more turnovers than you allow, and you usually win the game. Turnovers generate higher quality of chances (which is why the Flames' under Hartley were labeled as 'lucky'). I thought they always generated the more high-danger chances (like, actual high danger chances).
To me this team looks like the inverse of Hartley's team. It is almost like going from Keenan to Brent Sutter. Keenan didn't seem to worry so much about defence, but focused on offence. Brent Sutter came in, and it seemed to be the total 180.
Had Brent Sutter (or another coach) just come in and made some SMALLER adjustments, I think that team would have made the playoffs and maybe even win a round or two. Instead, they take such a drastic change, and it wasn't much better.
This is how I am seeing the change between Hartley and Gulutzan. Too much change. Too much pushing that proverbial needle the other way, instead of trying to see how the team was playing, what was working, and what needed improving upon. Make the necessary adjustments. Fiddle with the team.
You don't need a master system that provides you with the ability to conquer every team. You just need a system that plays to your strengths, limits your weaknesses, and you fiddle with it and make adjustments throughout the year. As a coach, you should be more concerned with generating offence, and limiting the other team to do so (which I am sure Gulutzan is well aware of). I just see this team being overly worried on generating offence 'the right away' (much like Brent Sutter preached with the 5 man units, shoulder-to-shoulder'). Flames are a fast team (outside the 4th line) but they play like they are decrepit vets half the time.
We lost the CORSI battle almost every night under Hartley but won the games (on a poorly constructed team!). We are winning the CORSI battle now, but losing the games (on a MUCH improved team) under Gulutzan. Why couldn't there be a happy medium there between the two?
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Eric: Lol thats fair. But we also saw every trick Hartley had up his sleeve blow up in his face as other teams figured out every trick the Flames had. Nothing worked, and Hudler also chose to disappear though I'm sure Regehr broke him before the playoffs the season prior.
When people discuss Hartley I think they forget about that last year, focusing only on 14/15
Not me. I remember 14/15 as well as 13/14. He had that team turned around at the midpoint of the 13/14 season as well, which made people like Aaron Ward predict the Flames making the playoffs in 14/15.
It wasn't just a lucky season. It was a decent stretch of sustained play that ended when trying to play in front of shaky goaltending.
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13/14 was played with zero expectations and Monahan was a revelation. I'm just saying that people gloss over the last year under Hartley or even the previous season and a half. Its always the miracle run they associate him with.
I’m not a big Hartley fan but I don’t think any coach would have prospered with the historically bad goaltending of that season. We will likely never see goaltending that bad ever again over an entire season.
The Flames finished with a league worst 3.13 GA/game that season and a .892 SV%.
It'll be interesting how the rest of the year goes, but right now the Islanders are AWFUL in net. 3.5 GA/game and .891. 8 other teams this season are at worse rates, but as you said it's pretty difficult to stay that bad for an entire year.
Though Colorado (3.37 and .894) and Dallas (3.17 and .893) finished worse than the Flames from 15/16.
In all 3 seasons Hartley coached here, the Flames finished near the very bottom of the league in terms of possession.
I don't care what people think about advanced stats, no team can consistently challenge for the playoffs with those kinds of possession numbers.
Hartley wasn't the answer.
Hartley as here for 4 seasons but his first year was the lockout shortened blowout all up year.
He then coached this team with some very poor talent. You can’t really compare the Flames then to the Flames now. I would wager if Gulutzan coached that same team the Flames would have absolutely missed the playoffs in 2015 and probably would have been a lot more boring to watch.
Hartley did the best he could with the talent he had. Not the right coach for the team going forward but Gulutzan isn’t either.
Advanced stats are beyond overrated. The other day I saw theeop 5 Corsi for teams and they included the Hurricanes, Oilers, and Flames. All teams that are on the outside of the playoffs today. They certainly are not worthless stats but extremely overrated in my opinion.
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Hartley as here for 4 seasons but his first year was the lockout shortened blowout all up year.
He then coached this team with some very poor talent. You can’t really compare the Flames then to the Flames now. I would wager if Gulutzan coached that same team the Flames would have absolutely missed the playoffs in 2015 and probably would have been a lot more boring to watch.
Hartley did the best he could with the talent he had. Not the right coach for the team going forward but Gulutzan isn’t either.
Advanced stats are beyond overrated. The other day I saw theeop 5 Corsi for teams and they included the Hurricanes, Oilers, and Flames. All teams that are on the outside of the playoffs today. They certainly are not worthless stats but extremely overrated in my opinion.
There is no surprise the Flames' possession numbers went up immediately after Hartley was replaced.
And I'll say it again, no team in the history of this league has been able to compete for the playoffs consistently with poor possession numbers year over year. We're now seeing the Ducks fall through the Randy Carlyle death spiral. A few outliers don't prove false years of predictive capability.
I just want to say that Hartley's last season here was absolutely abysmal hockey. Goaltending sucked, but that team had some of the worst possession numbers in the league and wasn't making the playoffs with Hasek in net.
The only good thing we got out of that season was Tkachuk.
Gulutzan is a bad coach, but it doesn't mean Hartley wasn't either.
At least Hartley's teams were always entertaining to watch. This is like watching paint dry.
There is no surprise the Flames' possession numbers went up immediately after Hartley was replaced.
And I'll say it again, no team in the history of this league has been able to compete for the playoffs consistently with poor possession numbers year over year. We're now seeing the Ducks fall through the Randy Carlyle death spiral. A few outliers don't prove false years of predictive capability.
Ducks are doing just fine and that's with a team full of injuries.
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13/14 was played with zero expectations and Monahan was a revelation. I'm just saying that people gloss over the last year under Hartley or even the previous season and a half. Its always the miracle run they associate him with.
I remember really enjoying the 13/14 year. Maybe it was just because the team finally turned the page on the Iggy/Kipper era but I remember the Flames being a tough out that season and if Gio didn’t miss a ton of time they lilelymwould have finished higher in the standings. They were more than 10pts clear of Buffalo, Wdmonton, and Florida who were the true trash of the league that year.
I don’t want Hartley back but those Flames teams were far more entertaining than the Gulutzan Flames
There is no surprise the Flames' possession numbers went up immediately after Hartley was replaced.
And I'll say it again, no team in the history of this league has been able to compete for the playoffs consistently with poor possession numbers year over year. We're now seeing the Ducks fall through the Randy Carlyle death spiral. A few outliers don't prove false years of predictive capability.
Well Gulutzan is proving good possesion numbers does not mean you have a good hockey team. Is this team so systems focused that if they don’t play the system perfectly they crumble.
Spending money on season tickets is frustrating when the team looks so boring on home ice and the fact they have a below .500 record really makes it bad. If they were boring but won 80% of their home games that is one thing. This team looks boring and they lose I couldn’t even sell tickets for below season ticket holder cost earlier this year.
13/14 was played with zero expectations and Monahan was a revelation. I'm just saying that people gloss over the last year under Hartley or even the previous season and a half. Its always the miracle run they associate him with.
The Flames in the last year under Hartley were 10th in the NHL in goals/GP with such stellar NHLers as Joe Colborne and Kris Russell playing key roles.
The Flames are currently 21st in the NHL with a roster featuring a two-years older Sam Bennett, Matthew Tkachuk, a two-years older Monahan, and an emerged Micheal Ferland.
We have gone from 10th to 21st in goal scoring, and that's got nothing to do with the "miracle run".
Hartley's coaching had flaws, particularily with our defensive zone play. But let's not pretend everything fell off the map after 2014-15. There's no way a Gulutzan team could ever be 10th in goal scoring, never mind the 6th place that they ranked in 2014-15.
__________________
"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."
Last edited by GranteedEV; 12-23-2017 at 09:46 PM.
Ducks are doing just fine and that's with a team full of injuries.
I would like to see how the Flames would have fared with both Monahan and Backlund injured for over 1/3 of the season. Carlyle has done a fine job when you consider how decimated by injuries they have been.
