Explosion at Ariana Grande Concert in England

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So once we've identified that a group of people or a culture are misogynist, we stop talking about it? From where I stand, it doesn't like that's the case.

And if the Klan did lynch a man in rural Mississippi tomorrow, I expect it would provoke an avalanche of commentary about racism and the culture that fostered it.

I think that they aren't as simplistic of motives, which makes it ironic when people like Matata complain about a lack of nuance, when boiling it down to misogyny is stripping the act of all other layers.

If a Klan member hangs someone of colour, I think we'd cry racism, because the primary (and possibly solitary motivation) is racism. When ISIS bombs an Ariana Grande concert, misogyny is one of the many factors that weigh in and I would argue it's not even the primary or secondary one. So to boil it down as an issue of misogyny, which is just a minor part of the issue, lacks nuance and harms credibility imo.

I see the argument that an attack on a concert put on by a young, overtly sexualised and "free" American woman is at least partially motivated by misogyny, but I don't see it as the primary factor.

I agree that we shouldn't stop talking about these things just because they're obvious, but I'm not sure we need to be upset when every one of the things ISIS hates doesn't make every headline after every attack. And I think the comparing ISIS attacks and other incidences where the "moral injustice" is plainly obvious is weak.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Which is why I specified Reformation and Enlightenment.

This statement is not any more accurate than the one I responded to. It's a poor understanding of history to believe the islamic world has not had an 'enlightenment'. It's also exceedingly poor history to believe that western 'enlightenment' lead or contributed to an aggressive adoption of "private faith and public secularism." This was a course charted over hundreds of years, beginning in the dark ages and bearing it's full fruit nearly half a millennia later.

The Spanish inquisition reached it's torturous height during the tail end of the Enlightenment period, and only preserved the free expression of religion in 1966. Forced recitation of the lords prayer in US public schools wasn't revoked until 1963.

It took hundreds of years for this evolution to take place, and those of us in the West who have witnessed the re-emergence of Protestant terror groups like the KKK for example, understand this transformation isn't close to complete.

In fact, it's a pretty prescient example of historical precedence, as both ages of islamic enlightenment were ended by foreign military aggression and the subsequent galvanisation of religious/ethnic into a mono-religious resistance.

Us in the west may want to look a bit closer at Islamic history if we want to avoid the same fate. Iran of the 1950s is essentially unrecognisable to much of the Iran of today. The same could be said for Baghdad of the 16th century compared to the 11th century.

Being attacked by external forces is a significant barrier to free and open expression. Existential threats have routinely lead to various forms of fundamentalism in every corner of human history and culture. Islam is not unique here.

[CaptainCrunch]

The fact that an ISIS supporter blew up a concert for a female singer attended by girls is a bonus in ISIS' eyes.

I tend to think they targeted that concert and that specific spot for effect more then closely held beliefs.

They ripped at the soft underbelly and terrorized a population, nothing more or nothing less.

If they could have the same effect for a gathering of Christians. Or the Union for pipefitters, they would have taken that opportunity.

But I doubt that this was anything more then the fastest and easiest and most graphic target that this "cell" could find.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If "shameless concert arena" doesn't scream "I hate vaginas young and old" I don't know what does!



Look at you... reading and stuff

I would say that it's worth being careful to remember the difference between noticing an issue and looking for one.

In radical Islam, which gender is the subject of incredibly shameful taboos and restrictions? Come on, Pepsi.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The Spanish inquisition reached it's torturous height during the tail end of the Enlightenment period, and only preserved the free expression of religion in 1966. Forced recitation of the lords prayer in US public schools wasn't revoked until 1963.

It took hundreds of years for this evolution to take place, and those of us in the West who have witnessed the re-emergence of Protestant terror groups like the KKK for example, understand this transformation isn't close to complete.

Progress is never complete. But we should take note when and how it happens, and make some effort to protect the values and institutions that foster it.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

In fact, it's a pretty prescient example of historical precedence, as both ages of islamic enlightenment were ended by foreign military aggression and the subsequent galvanisation of religious/ethnic into a mono-religious resistance.

The Ottoman Empire was the most sophisticated and innovative power in the world in the 17th century. By the end of the 18th century it was well on its way to becoming a fossilised backwater. When Europe was steaming ahead with innovation, commerce, and dazzling intellectual achievements, the Ottomans turned their backs on science in favour of piety.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Us in the west may want to look a bit closer at Islamic history if we want to avoid the same fate. Iran of the 1950s is essentially unrecognisable to much of the Iran of today. The same could be said for Baghdad of the 16th century compared to the 11th century.

Secular-minded Iranians were outbred by their conservative rural countrymen (the same thing is happening in Turkey today). There's a lesson there, but not a palatable one. Baghdad never recovered from being sacked by the Mongols.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Being attacked by external forces is a significant barrier to free and open expression. Existential threats have routinely lead to various forms of fundamentalism in every corner of human history and culture. Islam is not unique here.

The Arab world was shielded within the Ottoman Empire for centuries. People living in Syria or Iraq during the era when the Christian world leapfrogged the Islamic world had far more tranquil lives free of external threat than a Frenchman or German of the era.

And if being attacked by external forces is such a barrier to development and progress, how do we explain South Korea, which went from being one of the most impoverished parts of the world early in the 20th century, to being the battleground for a catastrophic war, to being one of the most prosperous and advanced countries in the world today? Or how about Japan? Or Vietnam?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

"Man, how can I make a thread about a horrific tragedy caused by terrorists about me and my in-group?"

Given that most posts you make in this sub-forum are dedicated to how special you and people who think like you are, you probably shouldn't be talking.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Given that most posts you make in this sub-forum are dedicated to how special you and people who think like you are, you probably shouldn't be talking.

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

#triggered

..

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

I wonder how many Calgarypuckers woud be proponents of a Donald Trump-esque travel/immigration moratorium right now if this heinous mass-murder happened at the Saddledome...

Would you care to explain how such a ban would prevent a British national from carrying out this attack on British soil?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by peter12

In radical Islam, which gender is the subject of incredibly shameful taboos and restrictions? Come on, Pepsi.

Right, radical Islam has never used the word "shameful" regarding American life except in the context of women's freedom. Everything else is totally shame-free by their standards. If they say shameful it must be about the women. Great example of nuance, peter.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Would you care to explain how such a ban would prevent a British national from carrying out this attack on British soil?

Not that I support his position and to play devil's advocate.... Although he is a British national, his family also arrived as refugees from Libya. If anything this adds more fuel to the anti-immigrant fire, as it shows that even after a generation integration is poor and the risk of radicalization exists.

Personally, I don't think the issue was immigration but political correctness that prevented the UK government form properly dealing with radical elements that later helped convert the bomber into a radical. If you have someone openly calling for violence in public against non-believers they should be arrested immediately. It's okay to promote your own religion as superior, but it is not okay to threaten those who disagree with you with violence.

[CliffFletcher]

A profile of typical Islamicist terrorists.

Salman Abedi: why Manchester bomber fits profile of other terrorists

Some interesting takeaways:

Most attackers are not lone wolves.

Almost half talk about their inspiration and plans with family and friends before carrying out the attack.

Most attacks are carried out by people who have recently travelled to the Middle East or their country of origin.

Most attacks take place within a hour travel of the perpetrator's home.

[CliffFletcher]

It's all about Western meddling in the Middle East, man. Blood for oil.

Oh wait.

At least 21 killed as Isis-linked militants rampage through Philippines city

[chemgear]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.c2ae3e75bd23

Brother of British bomber arrested in Libya after authorities say he was planning attack

Libya’s counterterrorism service said the younger brother of 22-year-old bomber Salman Abedi was arrested before he could carry out an attack in the capital, Tripoli. The brothers' father was also arrested as the crackdown on a suspected terrorist network extended to a second continent.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And if being attacked by external forces is such a barrier to development and progress, how do we explain South Korea, which went from being one of the most impoverished parts of the world early in the 20th century, to being the battleground for a catastrophic war, to being one of the most prosperous and advanced countries in the world today? Or how about Japan? Or Vietnam?

I was reading this thread wondering when is someone going to stop making excuses and bring up countries that have made that successful transformation - thanks for posting.

What did they do that worked that other countries are not doing? What exactly took the Japanese from worshipping their rulers to building the Japan we know today? Jews that survived the Nazis moved all over the world, how were they successful?

Middle east dictators have corrupted much of their population with hateful nonsense to continue their reign, it has simply spiraled out of control.

I see lots of excuses but not much in the way of solutions.

[chemgear]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...fter-uk-rebuke

US officials disclosed fresh details of the investigation into the Manchester bombing to journalists within hours of Amber Rudd warning them to stop the leaking.

The home secretary reflected the frustration and dismay of the UK security services in a series of interviews on Wednesday morning. She described the leaks as “irritating” and said she had made it clear to the US that it should not happen again.

However, within hours, American reporter Richard Engel of NBC tweeted details not released by the UK. Engel said US intelligence officers told him family members of the the killer, Salman Abedi, had warned UK security officials about him and had described him as dangerous.

The intelligence community has long been uncomfortable about revelations from its recent past made in books and articles, but the release of details of a live investigation on the scale of those by the US and France is a relatively new phenomenon.

It comes on top of Donald Trump’s release of intelligence to Russia that had been passed on by Israel, which had obtained it from an Arab country.

The leak of the British information, as well as demonstrating a lack of respect for a US ally at an emotional time, will have hindered the investigation, where it is essential to control the release of details.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It's all about Western meddling in the Middle East, man. Blood for oil.

Oh wait.

At least 21 killed as Isis-linked militants rampage through Philippines city

It's Saudi Arabia and its network of charities and the like. The argument I make is that there is an undercurrent of terror and fanaticism that go hand in hand in the Afghanistan-Pakistan arc, and extends all the way to Uzbekistan. And you can see reflections of it in Bosnia, in Kosovo, in Indonesia, in the Philippines.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...iews/nasr.html

Take oil, Saudi Arabia’s economic lifeline, and the main reason it has been so assiduously courted in the past. Saudi remains the world’s biggest oil producer and exporter, and the country with the largest proven reserves. It leads the mainly Middle Eastern, 12-member Opec cartel (Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries), and has unique influence over the global oil price.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...p-turned-toxic

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

What did they do that worked that other countries are not doing? What exactly took the Japanese from worshipping their rulers to building the Japan we know today?

They looked at advanced and prosperous countries in North America and Europe and asked themselves what they could copy from them. They valued education. Rewarded innovation. Established firmly secular rule of law. Used birth control to limit population growth.

Essentially, they were forward-looking. They didn't let the glories or the misfortunes of the past oppress them with resentment.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

They looked at advanced and prosperous countries in North America and Europe and asked themselves what they could copy from them. They valued education. Rewarded innovation. Established firmly secular rule of law. Used birth control to limit population growth.

Essentially, they were forward-looking. They didn't let the glories or the misfortunes of the past oppress them with resentment.

I was going to do a longer reply, but I feel I need to respond to this.

This is fantasy. The japanese were bombed into submission with millions of their citizens killed, the united states completely dismantled their existing empire structures, re-oriented their government and economic institutions and then heavily, heavily invested in rebuilding both their physical country as well as the institutions and infrastructure necessary to make it run.

Then in the 1950s, the US backed off their inital stance in regards to large scale corporate structures in japan as well as their defense industry in order to help with force projection and technological development for use in Korea. These corporate structures, called zaibatzus were culturally important components of the japanese government that US was able to change direction on outlawing due to their importance in strengthening the japanese economy against the growing communist threat in asia.

So, after being virtually destroyed, having their empire seized and a significant portion of a generation killed, this incredibly ethnically homogenous country was pumped full of money and protected with the most powerful military on earth so that their economy could slowly and steadly build itself up and provide excellent standards of living for its citizens.

Your idea of what constituted the rebuilding of japan, korea and vietnam is a fantasy of your own making. Hormonal Birth Control wasn't even available until the 1960s, long after the japanese post war 'economic miracle'.

FFS, Cliff.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I was going to do a longer reply, but I feel I need to respond to this.

Religious orthodoxy, low literacy, and unrelentingly high birth rates are tremendous drags on economic growth. Is it the outside world's fault that Muslim countries spend, on average, only 0.81% of GDP on research and development (global average is 2.5%)? Or that fewer than 20% of Indonesians and 8% of Egyptians believe in evolution? Or that fewer than half of women in Muslim-majority countries use any form of birth control (compared to two-thirds of women in the rest of the developing world)?

Do you have an explanation for why Egypt and India are going in opposite directions, despite having similar colonial experiences?

[Flash Walken]

I guess muslims just don't look to the west enough for inspiration?

Where is the conversation going? You say something patently false, I respond, you change the subject, we collectively abandon talking about the latest terrorist incident apparently triggered by a British National?