I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Where did I say it was stupid and absurd to suggest firing the coach? I haven't a different viewpoint on how much blame should be given to the players, but I don't think I've said anywhere that the opinion that the coach is bad is "stupid" or "absurd".

One of the problems with all these discussions is that people are exaggerating the position of others, and putting words in their mouths (happening on both sides). Can we try not to do that as much. I've not implied at all that it would be "stupid or absurd" to fire the coach if this season is a poor one. I don't think it would be at all.

If this season doesn't go well, all items should be considered - inclusive of firing the coach and considering if they have the right mix of players.
Teams that become over-commited to their core, when it becomes clear that core is not right, waste years.

But we are a long way off from all that.

Fair enough Jiri, I suppose I'm conflating some of the things others have said in this and other threads.

But I still think trading away young core players under the age of 25, who have played very well so far in their careers here isn't a recipe for success.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by jayswin

That's actually one reason why I think this Giordano contract may hinder us much more than many fans think. It all looked okay on paper a couple years ago - Sign the captain and best D-man for the rest of his career, then the youth comes up and BAM! contenders.

But I really feel that the age gap might be too large for the contract we signed him to. I think everyone had visions of this coming together really quickly and Gio still being a top defender.

What will likely happen is you'll have Monahan, Gaudreau, Hamilton, Bennett, Tkatchuk etc in their mid 20's, the team will be ready to become contenders and then all of a sudden Giordano's going to fall off and like most guys in their mid 30's it'll be a steep fall and then all of a sudden we'll be going "Oh man, we're ONE player away from competing with the big boys, if only we had that extra $6.8 mil OR 2014 Girodano."

This is a very real issue we'll be facing, imo, as much as posters jump all over me for bringing up a Giordano-less Flames team.

I think you completely nailed it in this post.

The age discrepancy is the real issue here. The Flames need to be paying a defender in the 23-26 year age bracket the 6.75 they are paying Giordano. They need a defender to be getting better over the course of his contract, not worse.

Even worse is that the return you could've gotten for Giordano would've been astronomical in previous seasons.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Besides Gulutzan (at this point), what would people have done differently?

Well if you end up screwing a coaching selection that badly, it really doesn't matter what else you've done or not done on the other side of the coin.

I'll give Gulutzan another 10 games to sort his crap out but he's starting to look like a lame duck in a serious way.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

At this point I think it's much more difficult to blame our heroes, young guys who we think are amazing than it is to blame the coach we know nothing about.

I've seen coaches take a lot of blame, but never this much this quick. Especially confounding since it is literally impossible for anyone to know what the coaches are doing and saying.

Given how we've placed a great deal of faith in our young core it is incredibly difficult to face the possibility that Johnny's struggling, Monahan hit a wall, Bennett isn't progressing as quickly as planned, Brodie has peaked and Gio's best days are behind him.

Those are scary propositions and I didn't even mention Elliott, Hamilton and our bad contracts.

Believing that all those guys form a core worth investing in and one that has contender potential but that a coach is screwing them all up is much more pleasant than facing the possibility we have a middling roster with only 1 star and some prospects who may not pan out as planned.

Which is why Tree should seriously be looking for a deal for Gio. Maybe not pulling the trigger till the deadline but looking to have it setup. Plus think about moving some other pieces for more picks? Be ready to move quickly from "we thought we were just a goalie and a couple of pieces from the playoffs" to "we aren't even close and need more pieces and more time".

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I think you completely nailed it in this post.

The age discrepancy is the real issue here. The Flames need to be paying a defender in the 23-26 year age bracket the 6.75 they are paying Giordano. They need a defender to be getting better over the course of his contract, not worse.

Even worse is that the return you could've gotten for Giordano would've been astronomical in previous seasons.

I've been on the "trade Gio" wagon since that deal was signed. Going back to when he left to Russia there's been no bigger supporter if his than I but his age and contract is a square peg in a roster or round holes. As much as it seems unfathomable to trade such a classy leader as with Iginla it's a matter of once you realize it's time for both parties to go their separate ways it's already too late.

[CliffFletcher]

It would be extremely difficult to trade Gio with that contract. It's the kind of deal teams give ageing core players on their own team, partly as reward for services past. Other teams aren't going to care about that. He would only be attractive to teams in win now mode, and how many of those have $6.75 mil in cap space available through 2021-22?

The time to deal Gio was before he signed the deal. The Flames are pretty much stuck with him now.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It would be extremely difficult to trade Gio with that contract. It's the kind of deal teams give ageing core players on their own team, partly as reward for services past. Other teams aren't going to care about that. He would only be attractive to teams in win now mode, and how many of those have $6.75 mil in cap space available through 2021-22?

The time to deal Gio was before he signed the deal. The Flames are pretty much stuck with him now.

lol I think you are way off.

Gio has put together consecutive career years 3 seasons in a row. He is off to a rough start but still has 4pts through 6 games. I think the Flames move that contract with ease if they want to

[Bourque's Twin]

I think Giordano's contract will be great for another 3 seasons including this one, leaving 3 risky years.

The Flames cap goes towards 21-22 players. Two of which should be around league minimum or less if the bounce between AHL and NHL. This means that each player should count towards roughly 5% of the cap on average. If the cap stays at around $73 million, which it won't, then Giordano will take up 9.25% of the cap. That's not ideal but it's not earth shattering. Hopefully he can play at a #3-#4 pace at a minimum. Right now he's a clear cut #1.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

lol I think you are way off.

Gio has put together consecutive career years 3 seasons in a row. He is off to a rough start but still has 4pts through 6 games. I think the Flames move that contract with ease if they want to

Can you cite some trades involving 33 year old defencemen with five years left at $6.75 mil? Or 34 year old defencemen with four years left at $6.75? Or 35 year old defencemen with three years left at $6.75?

[AltaGuy]

It's kind of an odd argument, because to me the Brouwer signing suggests that Treliving is in win-now mode too. There was absolutely no reason a rebuilding team needed to sign a rugged, veteran winger for big money who is older than 30 unless Treliving believes we have a chance now. Otherwise you let young guys develop into those roles and ignore the holes.

Looks like a mistake right now, as while Brouwer has been good, he certainly hasn't helped us win anything (yet).

[FlamesAddiction]

I could see Gio being traded for a player of similar risk and contract status like Dustin Brown. It would probably be a decent hockey trade at this point too (for us anyway).

[Erick Estrada]

No thanks. I would rather keep Gio than trade him for Dustin Brown.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

I think Giordano's contract will be great for another 3 seasons including this one, leaving 3 risky years.

I think this is the way other teams will roughly look at it. Gio's contract is absolutely moveable but because half of the contract has significant risk I can't see his value being much at all. Especially with his history of injuries.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I could see Gio being traded for a player of similar risk and contract status like Dustin Brown. It would probably be a decent hockey trade at this point too (for us anyway).

Well, no. I was/am all for moving Giordano, but let's not get crazy. First of all, he is a defenseman, and everybody wants those. Second, he is good. So, while the contract aspect is difficult, it does not mean the only option is taking dead weight... unless the dead weight is coming with 1st rounders or whatnot.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

It's kind of an odd argument, because to me the Brouwer signing suggests that Treliving is in win-now mode too. There was absolutely no reason a rebuilding team needed to sign a rugged, veteran winger for big money who is older than 30 unless Treliving believes we have a chance now. Otherwise you let young guys develop into those roles and ignore the holes.

Looks like a mistake right now, as while Brouwer has been good, he certainly hasn't helped us win anything (yet).

Seeing as how both top offensive lines are made up otherwise of two young players (Johnny/Monahan and Bennett/Tkatchuk) I think you need a veteran up there, if for nothing else than to provide stability and a good development environment. You can't have just kids throughout the team, even in a rebuild.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

I have always found he had the arrogance of a much more experienced General Manager.

I was disappointed that they didn't re-sign both Colborne and Nak at the reasonable salaries they would demand.

His pride is his biggest flaw, his need to "Win" every negotiation has lead to decent, affordable, serviceable, NHL players walking out the door.

These are not players begging for work, they will and have found work elsewhere, so they "Well that's my final offer, take it or leave it" doesn't really hold much clout.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I could see Gio being traded for a player of similar risk and contract status like Dustin Brown. It would probably be a decent hockey trade at this point too (for us anyway).

You gotta be kidding me. Dustin Brown is worth 1/4th of a Gio

[DiracSpike]

Look at all the Holly Hindsights here.

People hated Colborne when he was here, BT let him go and now that was huge mistake.
People loved Ortio so much they ranked him as the 3rd best propsect on the Flames and wouldn't have exposed him to waivers at any cost. But now this bizarre idea that the "three headed goalie" monster sunk last years season is all on BT even though most of you would've done the same thing.
Gio contract was met with near unanimous approval but now it's an anchor.
FFS, Hartley took a tonne of heat here too, but now that the team came out slow he's freaking Quenneville or something.

It's amazing how obivous moves seem to be 3 months, 6 months, 1 year out from when they were made. Too bad that's not how life works

[polak]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Look at all the Holly Hindsights here.

People hated Colborne when he was here, BT let him go and now that was huge mistake.
People loved Ortio so much they ranked him as the 3rd best propsect on the Flames and wouldn't have exposed him to waivers at any cost. But now this bizarre idea that the "three headed goalie" monster sunk last years season is all on BT even though most of you would've done the same thing.
Gio contract was met with near unanimous approval but now it's an anchor.
FFS, Hartley took a tonne of heat here too, but now that the team came out slow he's freaking Quenneville or something.

It's amazing how obivous moves seem to be 3 months, 6 months, 1 year out from when they were made. Too bad that's not how life works

That's not how it works. Treliving is supposed to do moves that work not just moves that media and fans like. If this team is regressing than Tre is on the hot seat, regardless of what people thought of the moves at the time.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

You folks can all pipe down calling Treliving out for the Giordano signing. At the time this board would have shot Tree out of the cannon at Foothills Stadium of he didn't resign him.

Sure, it's a bad to awful contract but each one of you were ready to ink it. Meaning cut it with the sanctimony.

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...no#post5355951