Christian Schools Bring Suit Against UC

[MolsonInBothHands]

I can't read the original story, since I am not a registered user. I only have this to go on:

Amid the growing national debate over the mixing of religion and science in America's classrooms, University of California admissions officials have been accused in a federal civil rights lawsuit of discriminating against high schools that teach creationism and other conservative Christian viewpoints.


Frankly, I don't care if the student attended a school teaching creationism or not. How did they do on the SAT's?

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Its like...my right to extend my fist ends at your nose.

If they [fundies] want to not use condoms, repress their individual homosexuality and eat fish on Friday I say giv'er

Just leave other people and their rights alone
________
Ivory cam

[MolsonInBothHands]

Originally posted by Flashpoint+Sep 1 2005, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flashpoint @ Sep 1 2005, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MolsonInBothHands@Sep 1 2005, 03:33 PM
However, I do know many, many devoutly religious people, who have found fulfillment by being as such. If they aren't harming anybody, or in fact aid others because they believe it is their duty to do so, then who am I to say they're wrong?

The whole problem for me is that devoutly religious people DO harm me, and society at large. I am willing to say "Contraceptives are good, there is nothing wrong with being gay, and the women should have equal rights with men".

I like devoutly religious people fine. It is when they get together and start passing laws that apply to me that I have a problem. [/b][/quote]
Contraceptives are legal, gay marriages are allowed, and my wife rules the roost. Which laws are you referring to?

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally posted by MolsonInBothHands+Sep 1 2005, 01:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MolsonInBothHands @ Sep 1 2005, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Fozzie_DeBear@Sep 1 2005, 02:38 PM
Did anyone see that Southpark when they showed everyone at the pearly gates with St Peter? It went something like this:

St Peter: Sorry you can't come in..
Muslim: But I was a good Muslim
Baptist: And I was a perfect Baptist
Jew: And I was an outstanding Jew
St Peter: I'm sorry everyone, the correct religion was...Mormanism. Mormanism was the correct religion.
Everyone: [disappointed] Awwwwwww

See. I should have listened to Grandma. :P [/b][/quote]
No, I didn't see that one. But that's a rip-off of Rowan Atkinson. He's the Devil and he's organizing the new people coming into hell:

Now, murderers? Murderers? (pointing) Over here, please. Thank you. Uh, looters and pillagers over here, thieves, if you could join them, and lawyers, you're in that lot. Uh, fornicators, if you could step forward? My God there are a lot of you. Could I split you up into adulterers and the rest? Male adulterers, if you could just form a line in front of that small guillotine in the corner there. The French, are you here? If you'd just like to come down here with the Germans, that'd be lovely... I'm sure you have plenty to talk about. Okay, uhm... Atheists? Atheists? You must be feeling a right bunch of nitwits. Never mind. And finally, Christians. Christians? Ah yes, I'm sorry, I'm afraid the Jews were right.

[Hack&Lube]

Far from being a Catholic (more Protestant) but strange how Catholics of all Christian denominations seem to be the most willing open to new ideas? Especially two of their most conservative leaders.


Pope Pius XII (On the Big Bang):
"it would seem that present-day science, with one sweep back across the centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to the august instant of the primordial Fiat Lux [Let there be Light], when along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation, and the elements split and churned and formed into millions of galaxies"

Pope John Paul II (On Evolution):
"Today, almost half a century after the publication of [Pius XII's] Encyclical, fresh knowledge has led to the recognition that evolution is more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory."

Yes, you've just read quotes from two Popes favoring both Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution.

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by MolsonInBothHands@Sep 1 2005, 02:48 PM
Frankly, I don't care if the student attended a school teaching creationism or not. How did they do on the SAT's?

It doesn't matter. The university chose not to recognize the science curriculum at their high school because it didn't follow the scientific method. Regardless of SAT scores, universities demand certain high school courses be completed as prerequisites for certain programs. I doubt these same students would have any trouble at all getting into an Arts or Business program, for instance, but since they lack the proper science prerequisites they weren't permitted into the science faculty.

[Faid1]

Originally posted by Cheese@Sep 1 2005, 10:47 AM
just a quick aside to the above comments....Ill take the time to retort molsons stuff later...hehehehe

Watching the stuff happening in New Orleans on TV I was dumbstruck at the looters rambling thru the city. I wonder how many of them were regular church going people? How is that they justified stealing others property then saying that God saved them later?

How many people who classify themselves as "Christians" could name all Ten Commandments?

[MolsonInBothHands]

Originally posted by Faid1+Sep 1 2005, 02:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Faid1 @ Sep 1 2005, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cheese@Sep 1 2005, 10:47 AM
just a quick aside to the above comments....Ill take the time to retort molsons stuff later...hehehehe

Watching the stuff happening in New Orleans on TV I was dumbstruck at the looters rambling thru the city. I wonder how many of them were regular church going people? How is that they justified stealing others property then saying that God saved them later?

How many people who classify themselves as "Christians" could name all Ten Commandments? [/b][/quote]
That is what Google is for.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by MolsonInBothHands@Sep 1 2005, 04:33 PM

A non-Christian with spiritual beliefs would be more accurate I think. Your list of tenants as a Humanist make a lot of sense to me, and I respect them. However, I have a strong belief there is something more to our existance than our time on Earth. I also believe there are forces in play not explanable by science when discussing the beginning of time. I don't know the nature of it, and I don't try to explain it to anyone. To me it's personal, it's just a feeling that there is something more. So call me a whacko if you must.

I don't consider myself part of any flock, but when I encounter somebody who claims to be, I ask them a lot of questions regarding what they believe, much as you are now. Sometimes, I will encounter an interesting idea, and file it away. Other times, I come across fellow whackos, but I do my best not to judge.

I can't ever remember filling out a form with a religion question... I would most likely put N/A (ie. none of your business)

Flashpoint: Interesting points. Take a flying leap, and test your theory, I won't judge, and I won't try to stop you.

I hope you have noticed by now I am not much of an advocate for organised religion. I have reasons to be bitter at them as well. However, I do know many, many devoutly religious people, who have found fulfillment by being as such. If they aren't harming anybody, or in fact aid others because they believe it is their duty to do so, then who am I to say they're wrong?

Back to the initial topic: the University. Entrance exams and interviews should be the only basis for granting admission, and nothing more. Focusing on religious upbringing as a basis for rejection is intolerance in my opinion.

I think the handle that represents you is the same as Cows...Agnostic.

There are always so many pieces of interesting tidbits...like this one..

I hope you have noticed by now I am not much of an advocate for organised religion. I have reasons to be bitter at them as well.

or this..

I do know many, many devoutly religious people, who have found fulfillment by being as such. If they aren't harming anybody, or in fact aid others because they believe it is their duty to do so, then who am I to say they're wrong?

There always seems to be that sentence one for a LOT of people...I would hazard a guess that it would be the majority. It seems that many hold some grudge against organized religion yet hold on for dear life in the hope that they will get their just rewards later on. Sounds nice...even heavenly. I would hope everyone who has posted here gets to taste that...regardless of their faith...or non faith.
YET, we allow those in control of the major religions...to continue the teachings of the things we find difficult to swallow...to OUR children? Just because a nice person does good things and lives a good life while a Christian, Morman, Hindu or Taliban...it doesnt make them a good "fill in the religous blank". It makes them a GOOD PERSON!

[MarchHare]

Originally posted by Faid1@Sep 1 2005, 02:58 PM
How many people who classify themselves as "Christians" could name all Ten Commandments?

According to the Harper's article linked above, 60% of American Christians can't name more than four of the Ten Commandments.

[MolsonInBothHands]

Another good post Cheese. I simply have a problem with posters on this board, who as soon as they hear the words Christian, Religious, and so on, label these as BAD PEOPLE. It is far too simplistic, and intolerant in my opinion.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer@Sep 1 2005, 02:32 PM
I refuse to trust science, science proves itself wrong every year, how am I supposed to rely on some of these "concrete" facts when in 20 years they won't, I don't believe in the bible because it's out of date, and I really doubt that Jesus existed. But why be so arrogant when you are relying on something that everything that "science" has proved will most likely be wrong or not the full story 100 years from now?

You refuse to trust science? What does that mean exactly?

Your argument is very hard to understand. Since they've been wrong in the past you refuse to believe anything "science" has to say now? Sure they were wrong in the past. So what? They were also right. Look around.

[Cheese]

More news on the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Thanks Hakan that was great...

Soon he was flooded with e-mail messages. Ninety-five percent of those who wrote to him, he said on his Web site, were "in favor of teaching Flying Spaghetti Monsterism in schools." Five percent suggested that he would be going to hell. Lawyers contacted him inquiring how serious he was about a lawsuit against the Kansas board. His answer: "Very."

Two dozen academics have endorsed the pasta god. Three members of the Kansas board who already opposed teaching intelligent design wrote kind letters to Mr. Henderson. Dozens of people have posted their sightings of the deity (along with some hilarious pictures). One woman even wrote in to say that she had "conceived the spirit of our Divine Lord," the Flying Spaghetti Monster, while eating alone at the Olive Garden.

"I heard singing, and tomato sauce rained from the sky, and I saw angel hair pasta flying about with little farfalle wings and playing harps," she wrote. "It was beautiful." The Spaghetti Monster, she went on, impregnated her and told her, "You shall name Him ... Prego ... and He shall bring in a new era of love."

LARF!!

Intelligent Spaghetti

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer+Sep 1 2005, 04:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flaming Homer @ Sep 1 2005, 04:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

First off, if the reader of this post is religous, please understand I am not blaming you. You were probably taken to a place of worship as a young child, and have been fed religion your entire life. It is hard to shake something like that. Even if you have serious doubts, you will attempt to hold onto it - witness several of the earlier posts. If the churches have you by the age of 4, odds are they have you for life.

Not your fault. Now to the post at hand.


Why is it intolerant to call people out for living in a fantasy?

If I told you I believed I could fly by flapping my arms really hard, you would say I was A) lying B) crazy. If it is B, I might actually believe I could fly, and you would (hopefully) try to dissuade me from jumping off a tall building to test it.

Suppose that there were a bunch of us "flappers" and we decided to try to deregulate the aviation industry - cause HEY! EVERYONE CAN FLY! They just have to BELIEVE hard enough! No, there is no evidence - but you shouldn't disrespect my belief. You can't prove I can't fly. So my theory is sound.

Tell me how my "flapping" story is any different from religon? The belief in something that cannot be proved? The difference is that usually you don't have people from the age of 4 getting together in large groups believing it together in an institution which has massive amounts of money and influence and can have a dramatic effect on public policy which alters "non-believer's" lives.

Religons advocate all sorts of silly things (like distain for gays, contraceptives, and women in the clergy), on the basis of an invisible man who lives in the sky. You figure that might pass me off a little? Public policy on the basis of a lie?

It vexed Galileo (who was brought before the inquisition for saying the Earth wasn't the center of the universe), and it vexes me - for having to put up with people saying "Evolution is just a theory and Creationism should be on par".


Yet, by me saying "You're nuts if you believe in God" is intolerant?

haha, your not blaming him for believing that if he lives a good life than he gets rewarded, you think he's been brainwashed? that's my problem with you science is our god people, your such ******* to religious people. What if YOU are wrong? most of the religious people on here have taken into account the fatc that they could be wrong, what about you? you live your life going on all smug that you got everything figured out and than bam you die, you could just cease to exist and be right, but what happens if you see St.Peter standing right in front of you now what? I doubt there is heaven but I believe strongly in there being a super natural force, shinguard, what if we created by aliens? who knows? I refuse to trust science, science proves itself wrong every year, how am I supposed to rely on some of these "concrete" facts when in 20 years they won't, I don't believe in the bible because it's out of date, and I really doubt that Jesus existed. But why be so arrogant when you are relying on something that everything that "science" has proved will most likely be wrong or not the full story 100 years from now? [/b][/quote]
The contradictions in your post is amazing. You lambaste people for saying anything against religion...
that's my problem with you science is our god people, your such ******* to religious people. What if YOU are wrong? most of the religious people on here have taken into account the fatc that they could be wrong, what about you?

then you say...

I doubt there is heaven

so which side of the fence are you on? When you die and IF it is St Peter, do you say..hey I was HOPING it was you? I trried to believe...um sorry about those times that...

cmon now...take a side and be specific.

[Flashpoint]

Originally posted by MolsonInBothHands@Sep 1 2005, 03:51 PM
Contraceptives are legal, gay marriages are allowed, and my wife rules the roost. Which laws are you referring to?

You're kidding right? Gay marrages are allowed (so long as they don't use the word marriage), condoms are legal (although the Pope publicly speaks out against them), and women have equal rights (unless they want to be a Catholic priest).

Come on. You know all that as well as I do! Yes, Canada is very progressive on all these fronts. But there shouldn't be a struggle at all!

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Hack&Lube@Sep 1 2005, 02:55 PM
Far from being a Catholic (more Protestant) but strange how Catholics of all Christian denominations seem to be the most willing open to new ideas? Especially two of their most conservative leaders.


Pope Pius XII (On the Big Bang):
"it would seem that present-day science, with one sweep back across the centuries, has succeeded in bearing witness to the august instant of the primordial Fiat Lux [Let there be Light], when along with matter, there burst forth from nothing a sea of light and radiation, and the elements split and churned and formed into millions of galaxies"

Pope John Paul II (On Evolution):
"Today, almost half a century after the publication of [Pius XII's] Encyclical, fresh knowledge has led to the recognition that evolution is more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory."

Yes, you've just read quotes from two Popes favoring both Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution.

Ummm... Pius basically said that what scientists call the Big Bang is just what 'let there be light' looks like to scientists who feel the need to explain it.

[Cheese]

...another lovely tidbit...

what about taxes? How do you feel about the fact that the Church industry is exempt from taxation in Canada and elsewhere?

[MarchHare]

Ummm... Pius basically said that what scientists call the Big Bang is just what 'let there be light' looks like to scientists who feel the need to explain it.

Again, neither the threory of evolution nor the Big Bang contradict religion at all, provided one doesn't treat the Bible literally. My grandfather was about as religious as anyone I've ever met, but he had subscriptions to Discover and Scientific American magazines. He saw the Big Bang and evolution as acts of God. My university physics and astronomy prof was also a religious person. It's entirely possible that modern scientific theories can coexist with religious beliefs.

Where I have a problem, though, is that religious people try to force their beliefs on other people's children, by teaching creationism in schools (or banning the teaching of evolution), by mandating "abstinence-only" sex education programs, by not allowing gay people to marry (in a civil -- not religious -- cermoney), etc. There isn't a single scientific-minded person I know who wants to ban the teaching of creationism in churches, to prevent parents from promoting an abstinent lifestyle to their children, or to force churches to marry homosexual couples, but the same cannot be said about the reverse.

[Patek23]

Originally posted by Cheese@Sep 1 2005, 02:31 PM

The contradictions in your post is amazing. You lambaste people for saying anything against religion...
that's my problem with you science is our god people, your such ******* to religious people. What if YOU are wrong? most of the religious people on here have taken into account the fatc that they could be wrong, what about you?

then you say...

I doubt there is heaven

so which side of the fence are you on? When you die and IF it is St Peter, do you say..hey I was HOPING it was you? I trried to believe...um sorry about those times that...

cmon now...take a side and be specific.

I am not religious, I don't trust science to solve everything. I dislike people who blast religion and I dislike people who blast science. But in this thread all the religious people are being good about it and admiting to stuff that doesn't make sense in Christianity, I've read all forms and interpretations of the bible that I possibly could, I see all the stuff that is not applicable in this day and age. Yet science people bash everything religion, as if religion is going to come and steal away their spotlight. No one from a religion stand point is completely denouncing the Big Bang theory as a possibility, and agree there are lots of facts but maintain that they will stay religious. Science backers slam these peoples religions and the religious people and refuse to admit the possibilty of a Super Natural force even though there are so many unexplained things in science than there are that are solved, and half of the things that are "solved" will be false or altered years from now. 2000 years ago it was a fact that peoples eyes shot out light so that we could see, 500 years ago it was a fact that the earth was flat, 100 years ago it was a fact that being white was the superior race and now it is a fact that there is nothing super natural.

[Cheese]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer+Sep 1 2005, 07:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flaming Homer @ Sep 1 2005, 07:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cheese@Sep 1 2005, 02:31 PM

The contradictions in your post is amazing. You lambaste people for saying anything against religion...
that's my problem with you science is our god people, your such ******* to religious people. What if YOU are wrong? most of the religious people on here have taken into account the fatc that they could be wrong, what about you?

then you say...

I doubt there is heaven

so which side of the fence are you on? When you die and IF it is St Peter, do you say..hey I was HOPING it was you? I trried to believe...um sorry about those times that...

cmon now...take a side and be specific.

I am not religious, I don't trust science to solve everything. I dislike people who blast religion and I dislike people who blast science. But in this thread all the religious people are being good about it and admiting to stuff that doesn't make sense in Christianity, I've read all forms and interpretations of the bible that I possibly could, I see all the stuff that is not applicable in this day and age. Yet science people bash everything religion, as if religion is going to come and steal away their spotlight. No one from a religion stand point is completely denouncing the Big Bang theory as a possibility, and agree there are lots of facts but maintain that they will stay religious. Science backers slam these peoples religions and the religious people and refuse to admit the possibilty of a Super Natural force even though there are so many unexplained things in science than there are that are solved, and half of the things that are "solved" will be false or altered years from now. 2000 years ago it was a fact that peoples eyes shot out light so that we could see, 500 years ago it was a fact that the earth was flat, 100 years ago it was a fact that being white was the superior race and now it is a fact that there is nothing super natural. [/b][/quote]
Homer Homer Homer....relax a bit...this is just a bunch of us good ole friendly CPers sittin on a couch by the fireplace with fave drink in hand having a nice ole' conversation on religion...we'll do sex next so hang tough.


I am not religious, I don't trust science to solve everything.

Like I said before...you gotta take a side..playin the game neutral just doesnt cut it. What you are trying to suggest is that all of the Christians here are being completely upfront and honest, yet us heathens who dont believe are constantly hammering these poor souls? No..I think we are simply tossing our ideas back and forth...like tennis sort of...except we are playing vertically! IF you arent religious...why do you care anyways?