When is our rebuild no longer a rebuild?

[David Struch]

The rebuild is complete, but it needs to be sustained with the continued development of Sam Bennett, Mark Jankowski, Dillon Dubé, Matthew Phillips, Juuso Välimäki, Rasmus Andersson, Oliver Kylington, and David Rittich.

[Vinny01]

The Flames rebuild ended when they traded for Hamonic imo. Coming off a playoff appearance trading a future unprotected 1st plus 2 2nds in addition to trading a pick for a 35 year old goalie are the only signals I needed to tell me the rebuild is over.

Treliving changed the coach and made a significant hockey deal that turned the team around and got them back on track but this team finished rebuilding in 2017 in my opinion.

The one thing I wondered as started last year was if we had enough high end picks in our system to successfully become a contender and avoid rebuilding back to being a treadmill team. The Flames were fortunate to get the equivalent of a top 3 pick in 2011 with their 4th rounder. They hit big time on both of their 6th overall picks in Monahan and Tkachuk. I really thought we would need Bennett to live up to his hype but then the trade happened this summer that brought in 2 former 5th overall picks during our rebuild timeline. The fact that both Lindholm and Hanifin are completely living up to their draft status now has helped push this team to contender status st least through the first 45 games of the year.

[ricardodw]

The rebuild finished on June 23, 2018.

After "THE TRADE" the core was set and support players were acquired: Neal, Ryan Czarnik.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by landshark

Hell yes the rebuild is over. Funny, I was thinking of starting a thread to ask for peoples overall assessment of the degree of success of the rebuild in general.

Really strong, as long as the key pieces on the back end continue to develop and can step in for Giordano when he's gone. The only thing that's missing is a goalie, and frankly, a good job was done by all on that front as well. Mike Smith was a reasonable acquisition at the time as a stop gap until Gillies or Parsons or MacDonald could get far enough along that you'd say "yup, there's our goalie of the future". All of those guys had a chance, and you'd think one of them would have made it, but projecting goalies is witchcraft, so you can't really blame the scouting staff for missing on what looked like a series of pretty good bets. Maybe one of them still has a shot at turning it around, but at this point I'd be looking at other options there, because that's going to be what holds the team back during this window. You don't want to end up like the Blues.

[CroFlames]

The rebuild ended when they traded for Hamonic.



Last season should have been a playoff year and the first year of the "window", but alas Gulutzan.



This season the window is open and probably stays open while Johnny and Monahan are under 30.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

...The only thing that's missing is a goalie, and frankly, a good job was done by all on that front as well. Mike Smith was a reasonable acquisition at the time as a stop gap until Gillies or Parsons or MacDonald could get far enough along that you'd say "yup, there's our goalie of the future". All of those guys had a chance, and you'd think one of them would have made it, but projecting goalies is witchcraft, so you can't really blame the scouting staff for missing on what looked like a series of pretty good bets. Maybe one of them still has a shot at turning it around, but at this point I'd be looking at other options there, because that's going to be what holds the team back during this window. You don't want to end up like the Blues.

Tyler Parsons is only 21-years-old. It’s ridiculous that you wrote this post without one mention of the Flames current starting goalie who is among the NHL leaders in every significant statistical category. This take is no good.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

We missed the playoffs 8 months ago because of Glen ####ing Gulutzan. No other reason. None.

Yup.

Largely the same group has gone from missing the playoffs to challenging for best team in the West with shaky goaltending.

I wonder what the main difference is between that team and this team?

Its a haircut.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Locke

Yup.

Largely the same group has gone from missing the playoffs to challenging for best team in the West with shaky goaltending.

I wonder what the main difference is between that team and this team?

Its a haircut.

I dunno ab out "largely the same". Lindholm, Hanifin, the rookie D pair, Rittich emerging are all huge developments. Ryan has also been a pretty solid addition. Czarnik and Neal not so much, but the players who are gone (Stajan, Brouwer, Lazar, Versteeg, etc) were not doing well so that's a non-factor.

Peters has been a welcome change, but IMO it's mostly to do with style and motivation, as opposed to systems. Plus way better slotting in the lineup due mainly to a couple fundamental roster moves. The guys that did well with GG (Gaudreau, Monahan, Gio, Tkachuk) are all doing even better. The difference is that Lindholm adds a lot to the first line and Hanifin allows Peters to work his D pair better.

[Flame19,289]

I think the re-build is over.

Until the end of the 2021-22 season, the Flames should remain in the Giordano/Gaudreau Window Re-Model phase.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I dunno ab out "largely the same". Lindholm, Hanifin, the rookie D pair, Rittich emerging are all huge developments. Ryan has also been a pretty solid addition. Czarnik and Neal not so much, but the players who are gone (Stajan, Brouwer, Lazar, Versteeg, etc) were not doing well so that's a non-factor.

Peters has been a welcome change, but IMO it's mostly to do with style and motivation, as opposed to systems. Plus way better slotting in the lineup due mainly to a couple fundamental roster moves. The guys that did well with GG (Gaudreau, Monahan, Gio, Tkachuk) are all doing even better. The difference is that Lindholm adds a lot to the first line and Hanifin allows Peters to work his D pair better.

Of course there is no way to know for sure, but I am as certain as I can be that this same roster with GG still as coach would be performing dramatically worse than they are with Peters.

They play so different in so many tangible ways, his player utilization philosophies are very different, greater accountability, more consistent effort, more aggressive forcheck and active D, I could go on.

I think you are greatly underestimating the impact of GG not being the coach of this team.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Of course there is no way to know for sure, but I am as certain as I can be that this same roster with GG still as coach would be performing dramatically worse than they are with Peters.

They play so different in so many tangible ways, his player utilization philosophies are very different, greater accountability, more consistent effort, more aggressive forcheck and active D, I could go on.

I think you are greatly underestimating the impact of GG not being the coach of this team.

Oh, don't get me wrong - it's night and day. I just think GG had fairly similar systems to Peters but zero ability to get players to buy in, and execute. Peters does like a forecheck more. But accountability, getting effort, shortening the bench, isn't what I was really talking about, and those are all Peters strengths.

Plus, like I said, the Hanifin and Lindholm additions can't be underestimated IMO. Mainly my disagreement is that this is largely the same team. About half the regular roster is different.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Agree with the posters citing the Hamonic trade.

That's not the kind of trade a rebuilding team does; trading away a number of top picks for a roster player is trying to incubate your status from rebuild to 'contender'. How that is defined in this case is simply being a consecutive year playoff team.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by David Struch

The rebuild is complete, but it needs to be sustained with the continued development of Sam Bennett, Mark Jankowski, Dillon Dubé, Matthew Phillips, Juuso Välimäki, Rasmus Andersson, Oliver Kylington, and David Rittich.

And good drafting. That is why in my opinion moving forward. the first round pick is untouchable. I would even look at moving some of the older tweeners for some more picks.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Tyler Parsons is only 21-years-old. It’s ridiculous that you wrote this post without one mention of the Flames current starting goalie who is among the NHL leaders in every significant statistical category. This take is no good.

He is only 21 years old, but he's not among the top goalie prospects in the league anymore. He might still make it to the show, but Treliving should be realistic and pessimistic (unlike fans like you, who have the luxury of looking at everything about the team through rose-coloured glasses). A good GM, at this point, should assume that the guys who don't look like they'll be NHL goalies won't turn it around. You hope they will, but assume they won't, and act accordingly.

As for Rittich, if you think that's the long term solution in net for the Flames, again, I think it would be foolish to bet on that. Projecting someone so unproven as the starter going forward for a team that you want to be a Cup contender is extremely risky. Maybe you see how it plays out for the rest of this year, depending on the market, but a competent GM like Treliving should see a need at goalie and be actively looking to shore up that position as the top priority for the team roster-wise. You do not want to have a real cup opportunity flushed down the drain because your goalie turns into a pumpkin in the postseason and you have no other legitimate option.

[foshizzle11]

I agree with Textcritic on this, Parsons is a winner and has been riddled with injuries over the last few years if I recall correctly. Giving up on a guy at 21 who hasn't been able to truly build his foundation due to injury is silly at this point.

Rittich is 26, was a nobody up until the Flames brought him over here 2 years ago, give Parsons at least until 24 before writing him off or grouping in the lower half of the goalie prospects in the league. He is still an elite goalie and can still pan out. Giving up on these kids is just silly and happens a lot because fans are impatient.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I'm not writing him off, I'm saying it would be foolish to say that the Flames have a clear succession strategy in net given how their prospects have performed. It would be incredibly stupid to look at a guy who can't post anything close to a .900 save percentage in the AHL and say, "this guy is our plan for the future". Gillies would make more sense than that, and I'm not sold on him, either, especially given his season. Other options besides the guys in the system need to be seriously pursued.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I'm not writing him off, I'm saying it would be foolish to say that the Flames have a clear succession strategy in net given how their prospects have performed. It would be incredibly stupid to look at a guy who can't post anything close to a .900 save percentage in the AHL and say, "this guy is our plan for the future". Gillies would make more sense than that, and I'm not sold on him, either, especially given his season. Other options besides the guys in the system need to be seriously pursued.

I don't think anyone is saying this. What I have taken issue with is your suggestion that the solution must come from outside the organisation while simultaneously ignoring possibly the best internal option. I have been on record numerous times over the past several months arguing that the Flames should and will be actively looking to upgrade in goal this summer, but that does NOT preclude the possibility that Rittich is that solution. He sure does not look like a flash-in-the-pan right now. Rittich is playing in his third full season in North America: was excellent in his first year in the AHL; was excellent while playing as a backup goalie as an NHL rookie; currently looks excellent while being rolled into a starting role in his second NHL season.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

As I said, you hope for the best, plan for the sober reality that the best probably won't happen. The top goalie prospects have not panned out as well as they were projected to. Yes, Rittich might be the guy based on his play in 25 games this season, but I would hope Treliving is proceeding on the assumption that he won't be the long term solution. I would hope he is actively developing other options, because the goaltending position is clearly the place where the Flames have the highest risk of having a weakness that can stand in the way of them getting to a cup final.

As for your characterization of Rittich's path... come on, no one saw this coming before the season started. He was a passable backup last year with a save percentage slightly over .900. There wasn't really any indication he could play like this over an extended period, and it wouldn't be a shock to anyone if he stopped doing so. He's not exactly Andrew Hammond, but let's face it, guys go on unexpected hot streaks and it's foolish to assume they'll continue, even if you hope you're wrong. No one should be comfortable with the Flames' future in net right now.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

As I said, you hope for the best, plan for the sober reality that the best probably won't happen. The top goalie prospects have not panned out as well as they were projected to. Yes, Rittich might be the guy based on his play in 25 games this season, but I would hope Treliving is proceeding on the assumption that he won't be the long term solution. I would hope he is actively developing other options, because the goaltending position is clearly the place where the Flames have the highest risk of having a weakness that can stand in the way of them getting to a cup final.

Well, duh.

As for your characterization of Rittich's path... come on, no one saw this coming before the season started. He was a passable backup last year with a save percentage slightly over .900. There wasn't really any indication he could play like this over an extended period, and it wouldn't be a shock to anyone if he stopped doing so.

Jordan Sigalet did.
Brad Pascal did.
The Flames have been very bullish on David Rittich for some time now.

He's not exactly Andrew Hammond, but let's face it, guys go on unexpected hot streaks and it's foolish to assume they'll continue, even if you hope you're wrong. No one should be comfortable with the Flames' future in net right now.

No one is "comfortable." But there is more reason for fans to be optimistic than you seem to be willing to admit. As for Rittich's "hot streak," I don't see why it wouldn't continue. This is how he played for a full two months last year before he cracked under the pressure as the emergency starter in late February. The only difference this year is that he is no longer cracking. That looks pretty sustainable to me.

[Ruttiger]

A rebuild that ends? I don't get it.