Thoughts on Treliving so far?

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Honest question, how is Raymond a net negative on this team? Is his presence holding anyone back?

I'm honestly interested to know why Raymond is a bad and not neutral thing.

I think this is right. Cap hit isn't great, but it is unlikely to really affect the team in a meaningful way. I know, you can't pay every replaceable player $3M, but he was brought in as a UFA and it was thought he was needed because it didn't look like we had anyone to step in.

Last year, it did seem like he was potentially holding back players, as guys like Jooris and Granlund really stepped up. But as so often is the case, the progression is not linear, and while Raymond hasn't been great, neither has any of the guys chasing that spot.

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

What? It does make it a bad contact. This is the definition of a bad contract. Contracts should be judged 100% of player performance.

Market value drives a players contact in FA (mostly) Whoever pays the most is the team that valued that player the most.

It isn't like buying food at a store.

When I heard 3 for 3.3 million I actually thought that was the TOTAL contract and still didn't like it.

These are the types of players you build a bad team with, regardless of cost (And his cost is outrageous)

At the same time it should also take context into account especially if you're grading Treliving based on that move. It was a reasonable contract based on the circumstances (0.4-0.5 pt career player, coming off a redeeming year and UFA). Unfortunately it became a bad contract because of the piss poor showing on Raymond's end.

That's not to say it was a fair or good contract. Just reasonable like how Frolik's is right now.

[Jason14h]

At the same time it should also take context into account especially if you're grading Treliving based on that move.

I don't put any more stock in this signing then the Brodie signing. One was a +, the other was a -. They even out.

There is no 'context' around a UFA signing who isn't on your team. We decided he was worth more then every other team decided, and he signed with us.

No FA has a predetermined 'worth'. It is 100% determined by the market. Just because other GM's made equally as bad evaluations of Raymonds worth doesn't give our GM a pass on it.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I don't put any more stock in this signing then the Brodie signing. One was a +, the other was a -. They even out.

There is no 'context' around a UFA signing who isn't on your team. We decided he was worth more then every other team decided, and he signed with us.

No FA has a predetermined 'worth'. It is 100% determined by the market. Just because other GM's made equally as bad evaluations of Raymonds worth doesn't give our GM a pass on it.

LOL. So a massive positive move to sign one of the best young defensemen in the game to a great contract is balanced out by a bad depth move? That's a good joke man, pretty funny. Doubt many agree with your lack of logic there.

[CsInMyBlood]

Why did so many of us know Mason Raymond would be a bad signing when it was announced? BEFORE the term and money was announced. It only got much worse.

Why did Feaster, who is constantly blasted for his moves know Mason Raymond would be a bad signing?

Why did the Vancouver Canucks let Mason Raymond walk when he became a UFA?

Why did the Toronto Maple Leafs let Mason Raymond walk when he became a UFA?

Could it be because it is Mason Raymond is not a good player? Then the forced fed ice-time to try and kick start something from him has hurt the Flames. His killing of so many plays has hurt the Flames. His horrible play has hurt the Flames.

How did everyone know that except our GM? I don't care what the circumstances were perceived to be, Mayray is a useless player who was given a three year contract for a 3.15 million cap hit.

Bad signing and that rests on the GM for making that decision.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Why did so many of us know Mason Raymond would be a bad signing when it was announced? BEFORE the term and money was announced. It only got much worse.

Why did Feaster, who is constantly blasted for his moves know Mason Raymond would be a bad signing?

Why did the Vancouver Canucks let Mason Raymond walk when he became a UFA?

Why did the Toronto Maple Leafs let Mason Raymond walk when he became a UFA?

Could it be because it is Mason Raymond is not a good player? Then the forced fed ice-time to try and kick start something from him has hurt the Flames. His killing of so many plays has hurt the Flames. His horrible play has hurt the Flames.

How did everyone know that except our GM? I don't care what the circumstances were perceived to be, Mayray is a useless player who was given a three year contract for a 3.15 million cap hit.

Bad signing and that rests on the GM for making that decision.

Its definitely a bad signing but wow... Thats a little over the top no?? I look at things like trading Savard away for nothing or letting St.Louis walk or signing Tangs/Olli AGAIN and react like that.

Treliving made a couple of bad initial moves when he started but at the same time Engelland has turned out to be right at if not just a shade over what he is/should be earning.

Treliving is awesome

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Feasters drafting is so over-rated around here. Other than Gaudreau no one has made an impact on this team. Maggie the monkey could have picked Monahan. Sutter drafted Brodie so they each have an unreal 4th round pick.

I think he lives off the lust of the 2013 draft because it looked like he would get 4 great NHLers out of it (Sven, Wotherspoon, Granlund, Gaudreau) as all 4 were showing good progress the first 2 years. Now we're 2/4 with Sven not being any better than Chuck Kobasew and Wotherspoon becoming this decade's Blair Betts. Gaudreau is obviously a home run, where his contribution was allowing Tod Button to have a wild card pick. Granlund we will see.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I think he lives off the lust of the 2013 draft because it looked like he would get 4 great NHLers out of it (Sven, Wotherspoon, Granlund, Gaudreau)

Er… Gaudreau was drafted in 2011.

[MarkGio]

Ferland was a Feaster pick. So was Gillies and Hickey.

[hockey.modern]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Ferland was a Feaster pick. So was Gillies and Hickey.

Ferland was a Darryl Sutter pick I believe.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by hockey.modern

Ferland was a Darryl Sutter pick I believe.

Yup, 2010 along with Arnold.

[SHOGUN]

I think Treliving deserves at least a B for picking up Hamilton and Frolik in the off season.

[Caged Great]

If the worst thing he did was sign a filler forward for what should have been a couple of down years for slightly more than he deserved, that's pretty good. Yes the Flames do have a lot of $ tied up in depth, but the depth helped get us to the 2nd round last year and has held the fort this year as the Flames ease younger players into key spots in the lineup.

The time of the kids taking over is not far away and those vets will be dealt.

He hasn't traded a 1st and 2nd in a good draft for a player that is likely to bust like another team (G. Reinhart).

Getting Hamilton and Frolik were both home run acquisitions for the long term.

The key thing now is transitioning the team both slowly and quickly into the next stage. The quick thing would be to deal off a lot of players at the deadline, and the slow thing would be replacing most of them at the draft or on July 1.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Uh, he was about the same, a 0.5 point per game player, and was used mostly on the second line during his time.

I think his back injury has worn him down more than anyone knows. The way he skates makes me think he's never fully recovered from it. Not making excuses, because I think he's capable of more, but I remember him in Vancouver pretty well, and he never looked this awkward in his time there.

He also had 23 points in 57 games for us last year, which is just a small drop in his career numbers. Not terrible compared to previous performances.

Ah, the old point argument. That ain't how you judge the efficacy of a player. If you look at it that way Taylor Hall is one of the best players in the game! Truth is points tell half the story.

Mason Raymond was a middling, inconsistent, 3rd liner for the Canucks. He was a whipping boy there for all the same reasons he's a whipping boy here. The Canucks were happy to let him walk, as were the Leafs, even after his best season. Raymond is poor defensively, lost offensively, and maddening to watch. He's all speed but doesn't use it with much consistency. He's horrible and should be waived to make room for a player from the minors.

[T@T]

Thanks to our GM Mason Raymond is a wealthy version of Matthew Lombardi.

[SHOGUN]

Holy ****, I'm glad Mason Raymond will be gone soon, not because he's a very mediocre player but the fact people continue to hound Treliving for the signing... it's getting old really fast. Signing Mason Raymond didn't hurt anyone. To think about it, he was beneficial to the Flames because he allowed most of our farm players to develop their game in the AHL. Most of our prospects in the AHL aren't ready to play in the NHL fulltime... signing guys like Raymond allow the Flames to develop their players slowly and properly without rushing anyone...

Name one guy on the farm team that's capable of thriving in Raymond's role on the team.... I can't even think of anyone.

[Poe969]

But why did he have to sign Raymond....couldn't he just have got someone like Seguin or something to be a spot filler. I find it hard to believe that when we needed someone to take up a spot on the team because the team had just started a rebuild and no one knew how good Johnny would be or if we'd have anyone else ready that he just couldn't get an amazing player on a reasonable contract... I mean why Raymond, why not Crosby or Stamkos or some other amazing star player?!?!

The Raymond signing wasn't bad, it looks bad now because the team progressed further and faster during Raymond's time here then expected. The team needed someone and Raymond just had a decent year. He wasn't a star player but he was all the team really had to choose from. He's not the greatest and I'd love if he were gone but signing him wasn't a terrible move.

And for anyone who thinks the Seto deal was so terrible, it wasn't. It cost the team next to nothing, no one seemed ready to take the spot at the time, Seto had done well in the past and the team took a chance on him. It didn't work out for the team but the signing itself really helped Seto as a person and for that reason alone, I'm going to say that if anything, it was a good signing.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Ferland was a Feaster pick. So was Gillies and Hickey.

Ferland was a Sutter pick. Hickey was a Treliving pick. Gillies was a Feaster pick.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by SHOGUN

Name one guy on the farm team that's capable of thriving in Raymond's role on the team.... I can't even think of anyone.

Agostino, Arnold, Shore, Poirier, the organist from Slapshot (post shot to the head), any fan who has hit the net in the intermission challenge, the dead guy from Weekend at Bernie's... The options are endless.

[wingmaker]

Wow, way too much belly aching about depth players. Considering some of the boat anchor contracts depth players have been given around the league, the ones on the Flames are nothing.

The big negative I can see on Treliving is the goalie situation coming into this year. I think he deserves some criticism for that.

Additionally, I can understand the mentality of giving him an incomplete until he has more time to prove his mettle.

But otherwise, he was made a very positive impact on the organization. He has been a calming, stabilizing influence who has refused to make moves that involve trading away future assets. On a rebuilding team, that is gold. And then add to that the Hamilton and Frolik acquisitions and he has put this team in a position to make a real push as soon as next year. I think they could have even made a push this year if Frolik had stayed healthy and Hudler hadn't become a shadow of himself.