Friedman: Flames a good fit for Kessel?

[Resolute 14]

Bobby Ryan was mediocre as all hell last year, before he got hurt, and that played a major role in their missing the post-season. Even this year, he didn't give the Sens the kind of scoring they needed during their run for a playoff spot. He was there, but he wasn't driving the offence.

However, the context is also slightly different. The Sens lost Alfredsson and they lost Spezza. They needed a big name who could step up and kind of form the identity of the team. I think the jury remains out if Ryan can be that, but whether or not he succeeds, the Sens gave up a high price for him.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Really?

Silfverberg is a beast. Yes, Ryan has some hi-lite real goals sure. But Silfverberg is a two-way player with great speed and nice finish.

Ottawa with their first, Silfverberg + Noesen is better than having just Ryan IMO.

The day and age of selling farm for 1 player is over.
This is a 4 line league you have to have depth. 2 major assets and 1 depth player for 1 major asset. Do the math.

That deal hurts the Sens more IMO.

Like I said, it may end up being lopsided in Anaheim's favor, but for now it's Ryan vs. Silfverberg in the NHL and Ryan is better IMO.


I will concede that it came very close to being a complete disaster of a trade when it looked like Anaheim might be picking top 4 or 5 in 2014 with Ottawa's pick, but lucky for them they went 8-2 down the stretch to push that pick back to 10th overall. If Anaheim had ended up with Ekblad or Bennett out of that trade then I could agree that it was a massive set back to the rebuild.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Really?

Silfverberg is a beast. Yes, Ryan has some hi-lite real goals sure. But Silfverberg is a two-way player with great speed and nice finish.

Ottawa with their first, Silfverberg + Noesen is better than having just Ryan IMO.

The day and age of selling farm for 1 player is over.
This is a 4 line league you have to have depth. 2 potentially major assets and 1 depth player for 1 major asset. Do the math.

That deal hurts the Sens more IMO.

I disagree with the bolded text. Ottawa had no first line talent and Silfverberg is not first line talent.

Yes, you need organizational depth. But LA has won the Cup twice while making significant trades where multiple potentially major assets went out in return for 1 major asset.

Reality is you need depth and high end talent. Silfverberg is depth talent, Ryan is high-end talent.

Yes, you need to be able to roll 4 lines - but your top 2 lines need to have high-end talent to compete with the opposition. You need game breakers.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Bobby Ryan, relatively, was struggling the 2 years prior to being dealt. Rather than being a building block, he began to look like a good complimentary player to a team built on Getzlaf and Perry. His last year with the Ducks he put up less than a 20 goal pace. The Ducks were not in a great shape with the salary cap, especially going forward. Ryan also had only 2 years left on his deal that would see him become a UFA.

The Ducks still managed to receive a 22 year old NHL player coming off a relatively promising rookie campaign, a 1st round pick of a fringe playoff team, and a 20 year old former 1st round pick. Despite having to adjust to the NHL ice size, the highly-touted Silfveberg was second on the team in goals, able to play any situation and had shown glimpses of great skill.

Rick Nash, again relatively struggling "only" scoring 30 goals, was traded for a 24 year old player who was already looking like a 20-20 player under the right circumstances, a good role player who had scored 24 goals a year prior, a 1st round pick in a strong draft class and, at the time, a potentially not terrible Tom Erixon. Nash had as long and as expensive contract as Kessel, especially when you factor in the lower cap hit at the time and the back-loaded contract (opposite of Kessel). Columbus still got a solid package for him.

Kessel's an elite talent. He's likely not going to be shipped out for peanuts. A first, a young top 6 forward and a decent prospect is probably the minimal asking price. That's why I would stay away. But I disagree with the people who think his contract is an albatross or that he wouldn't fit on this team. Speed and elite skill? I'm sure Bob could find a spot somewhere for that.

[Jason14h]

Kessel in a Flames Uni, no matter what angle of being acquired, would SRT the Flames back for years, destroy any respect the team has built, snuff out Treliving's GM respectability as being a GM who thinks for himself, and force Burke into an even darker shadow amongst the hockey community.

What are you talking about? Why is Kessel all of a sudden universally hated in the NHL and capable of destroying a teams respect factor?

I get it, you heard the Toronto media talk about his bad attitude and that he is a bit pudgy.
Seriously though, if Calgary traded for him you think the team would lose respect.

What makes you think Treliving wouldn't do his own homework, and actually see some benefit is bringing is a potential 40 goal scorer who is in theory still in his prime producing years.....

And it is a lot easier to acquire depth players then stars. 40 goal scorers don't grow on trees. If you don't think Kessel on the 2nd line with Bennett and another winger isn't a huge offensive plus on what we were throwing out there last season and wouldn't help this team I think you're off base.

[Resolute 14]

40 goal scorers don't grow on trees. As evidenced by the fact that Phil Kessel is not a 40 goal scorer. You can't criticize someone else for overemphasizing a negative characteristic of Kessel while overemphasizing his positive, Jason14h.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that the Leafs would be after Bennett, or a player of his calibre, to acquire Kessel. Fat lot of good that does us.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Kessel's an elite talent. He's likely not going to be shipped out for peanuts. A first, a young top 6 forward and a decent prospect is probably the minimal asking price. That's why I would stay away. But I disagree with the people who think his contract is an albatross or that he wouldn't fit on this team. Speed and elite skill? I'm sure Bob could find a spot somewhere for that.

This is exactly what I thought it would take to get Kessel. Its very similar to the Nash or Kesler deal as well.

Kessel

for

15th overall, Backlund, Porier/Klimchuk

Anything less than that and Shanny laughs and hangs up the phone.

I don't think we need to make this move, but anyone who thinks that Kessel isn't an elite top line winger is delusional. He may have some "Leaf stink" on him, but he makes Johnny and Mony better. Never mind moving Hudler down to support Bennett on the second line.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

What are you talking about? Why is Kessel all of a sudden universally hated in the NHL and capable of destroying a teams respect factor?

I get it, you heard the Toronto media talk about his bad attitude and that he is a bit pudgy.
Seriously though, if Calgary traded for him you think the team would lose respect.

What makes you think Treliving wouldn't do his own homework, and actually see some benefit is bringing is a potential 40 goal scorer who is in theory still in his prime producing years.....

And it is a lot easier to acquire depth players then stars. 40 goal scorers don't grow on trees. If you don't think Kessel on the 2nd line with Bennett and another winger isn't a huge offensive plus on what we were throwing out there last season and wouldn't help this team I think you're off base.

Yeah, why would the Toronto media who see the guy on a daily basis know anything about Kessel's character? Especially compared to us?

On the question in the thread title? The Flames are a great fit for Kessel. however, he is not a good fit for the Flames. Why? He'd benefit from playing with 200 foot players like Monahan or Backlund, getting passes from Gio, Brodie or Gaudreau, and playing on a generally defensively responsible team. But the team would suffer in equal amounts. For the supposed 40 goals he'd score with Johnny and Monnie, you'd not have Hudler's 31 from the right side (and Monahan might not score as many because he'd be covering up). And he'd cause a lot less aggressive play from the rest of the team (especially the top 4 defencemen) whenever he'd be on the ice because of his complete lack of backcheck.

[Hackey]

If Kessel came cheap I think you for sure explore that. This idea that his defensive game is so bad or his character is so bad that he would drastically hurt the team is a bit over dramatic in my opinion. The things that actually concern me are one his contract and two the pressure of the Canadian market. I do think if he came here he wouldn't be viewed as "the guy." He could blend into the team more and just play hockey. Unfortunately I don't see him being traded for secondary pieces. He's an elite player and will likely command a nice return. If we could land him without giving up our key assets than it would just be a matter of if the contract would hurt us going forward. There are lots of ways to get around that though so really I don't see it as a huge issue either.

[dammage79]

Only that boat anchor of term on his contract should be the big concern of Kessel playing on the Flames.

Fat Kessel still scores goals like no one else. Hoping Hartley and his team can get Kessel to buy in and be a better sushi eating Kessel could be unique, amazing and deadly against the opposition.

Would the Flames media Market even be 1/100th of the hell it is in T.O? No. I think the pressure in CGY pales n comparison to Toronto.

After having said all that, I don't see Kessel in a Flames uniform any time soon. Treliving appears to be too conservative for that kind of trade.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, why would the Toronto media who see the guy on a daily basis know anything about Kessel's character? Especially compared to us?

Would that be the same media that was giving Phaneuf the Norris for changing radio stations?

Toronto media is fickle, and while they may be right about Kessel, I wouldn't put much stock into how the media feels about a player since it will change the next time he scores a goal or makes a mistake anyways.

[ForeverFlameFan]

While we are all looking at the negatives, I think there are some great positives when acquiring Kessel:

1. Just like Iginla, he has never had an elite center or a bonafide 1C on his side. Monahan/Bennett with Kessel on the wing would be very, very dangerous.
2. He still has 3-5 years of prime in him
3. If he actually did up his fitness to another level, then it'd be a steal for us.

[Tron_fdc]

I don't see Kessel as a cancer at all. To me he's the fat kid in gym class everyone pokes fun of, except he just so happens to be REALLY good at gym class.

Has he ever been a distraction for anything else other than eating hamburgers? Honest question. He always seemed quiet and unassuming off the ice, but I don't really follow TO that much. I'd never trade the farm for him, but I wouldn't complain at all if he was had at the right price.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

I don't see Kessel as a cancer at all. To me he's the fat kid in gym class everyone pokes fun of, except he just so happens to be REALLY good at gym class.

Has he ever been a distraction for anything else other than eating hamburgers? Honest question. He always seemed quiet and unassuming off the ice, but I don't really follow TO that much. I'd never trade the farm for him, but I wouldn't complain at all if he was had at the right price.

There was the comment from Toronto's team president (I think it was) that referred to a dressing room problem player, that everyone thought was Kessel.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Would that be the same media that was giving Phaneuf the Norris for changing radio stations?

Toronto media is fickle, and while they may be right about Kessel, I wouldn't put much stock into how the media feels about a player since it will change the next time he scores a goal or makes a mistake anyways.

I always understood they ridiculed him for that.


The local media is an easy target, but more often than not they have a handle on the pulse of the team.

Let's not pretend this is a new view of Kessel. It's existed from before he was a Leaf.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Yeah, I think Kessel is maybe a strange guy and not very media-savvy, but that isn't the worst thing in the world.
Cap issue is a real problem for him. The teams that might have cap space and assets, aren't likely title contenders where he might make sense, and the title contenders don't likely have the assets and cap space.

Throwing out a a few ideas from my pea-brain, would Buffalo be interested in making a splash? They have a number of nice assets, Kessel is American, Pegula can spend money, often foolishly. Edmonton? (seriously).

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

I don't see Kessel as a cancer at all. To me he's the fat kid in gym class everyone pokes fun of, except he just so happens to be REALLY good at gym class.

Has he ever been a distraction for anything else other than eating hamburgers? Honest question. He always seemed quiet and unassuming off the ice, but I don't really follow TO that much. I'd never trade the farm for him, but I wouldn't complain at all if he was had at the right price.

If your highest paid player doesn't commit themselves to all parts of the game, it's a distraction. He's not purposefully a distraction, but I can't imagine guys like Bouma and Jooris etc.. take kindly to Phil "No Backcheck" Kessel. This is why these types of guys are cancers. It's not that they are pricks to teammates or anything. But in game, when you're trying your ass off but your top paid guy isnt and still getting better opportunity icetime, it creates a ripple effect through the team. Just like watching your captain go through a wall creates a ripple effect the other way.

Hartley may be able to fix that, but the risk isn't worth the 5 years of post-prime Kessel at 8 mil who, IMO, is going to fall off a massive cliff in his early 30's.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Has he ever been a distraction for anything else other than eating hamburgers?

I believe last summer he was quoted a few times saying that he feels he doesn't have to work out much in the off season, and then coaching staff (or mgmt) affirmed that he's "special" and were OK with this because of his status (whatever that means). This was all on the record.

I don't know if that qualifies as a distraction, but it certainly doesn't seem like the type of attitude that would fit under Hartley and Gio's leadership.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by heep223

I believe last summer he was quoted a few times saying that he feels he doesn't have to work out much in the off season, and then coaching staff (or mgmt) affirmed that he's "special" and were OK with this because of his status (whatever that means). This was all on the record.

I don't know if that qualifies as a distraction, but it certainly doesn't seem like the type of attitude that would fit under Hartley and Gio's leadership.

Why is that? He's not a leader, it's been well documented the guy just wants to play hockey and do nothing but the least he has to with the media.

I'd argue in TOR he did not have stable leadership to operate under and was thrown to the media wolves far too many times.

Here he'd be well guarded against that as the leaders in the room take majority of the media time anyways. And the Flames media right now have a hard time throwing anyone under the bus like those vultures in T.O.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Yeah, I think Kessel is maybe a strange guy and not very media-savvy, but that isn't the worst thing in the world.
Cap issue is a real problem for him. The teams that might have cap space and assets, aren't likely title contenders where he might make sense, and the title contenders don't likely have the assets and cap space.

Throwing out a a few ideas from my pea-brain, would Buffalo be interested in making a splash? They have a number of nice assets, Kessel is American, Pegula can spend money, often foolishly. Edmonton? (seriously).

Buffalo could probably make a splash if they wanted to.

21st OA, 51st OA, Grigorenko and maybe one more small add would be fair.