Friedman's 30 Thoughts - Nov 6

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by AcGold

I just don't get what the rush is with Sven. He's still got years on his contract, so what if he doesn't perform today. Trading him at minimum value isn't going to help. Let him mature. He's one prospect among dozens.

Expectations..... probably not from the team side, but from Sven's side. From his POV, he was pretty much told - at 19 years old - he would be in the NHL. From that day on, he expected he would be in the NHL (and probably producing based upon those 5 games) and anything less than that, is a dissapointment and he needs to meet that need ASAP in his mind. Its why Edmonton f'ed up their rookies so bad, they were just given those positions too easily and never grew. For Sven, its been 3 (?) years since he was told he has made the team, so in his eyes, a few quick fix's here and there are what he needs to get back to the NHL..... and that is not the case. Quite frankly, I don't think its pouting or sulking, it seems like the person who has the highest expectations for him is himself and thats what is frustrating him. And this is really hard to change... you can see it in his comments and you've seen it from his expectations since that summer he was 19.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

True. But good one's are obvious and help to clarify the point that one is attempting to make, and I really don't think that your's had that effect.

But enough about the function of your analogy.

Since you asked for my opinion...

I think you are being really needlessly defensive about this, and it is probably best if you stepped back from the discussion. I honestly don't think anyone else is that caught up on whether or not Baertschi's suffers from "character" issues. Most of us are just concerned to know why he seems to be struggling, and most posters seem to believe that his problems are more psychological than physical.

THAT'S ALL. It's probably best that we leave it at that for now. Hopefully he has a good game tonight.

When you feel strongly about something and people make baseless accusations, and then attack your posts because of it, it's hard to not be defensive. It goes both ways. I'm not going to let the bullies win just because there is a horde of them.

[GioforPM]

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Except for the part where I made baseless accusations.

[GioforPM]

No one made baseless accusations about Sven. You just didn't like what the accusations were based upon.

On the other hand, your "analogy" was baseless. Also your accusation of bullying.

That's it for me. No more responses on this thread. If you want to discuss Sven, I'm happy to do so, on the Sven thread.

[saillias]

To discuss Friedman's 30 Thoughts,

There's obviously a huge market for defensemen right now. We should call up Wotherspoon and see what he can do, and gain an asset out of Smid or Diaz. I'm a fanboy of the kid but I think he's better than those 2 right now.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by saillias

To discuss Friedman's 30 Thoughts,

There's obviously a huge market for defensemen right now. We should call up Wotherspoon and see what he can do, I'm sure a team would trade for Smid or Diaz.

I'd like to see a Dman come back, or at least a prospect.

I'm not sure Wotherspoon has been tearing it up on the farm. But then, they've been pretty bad defensively as a whole down there.

[Goriders]

Pretty sure Sven is not going to be a regular on the Flames at any point going forward. Not sure why everyone over focuses on him.

There are already a number of young guys ahead of him in the depth chart for performance reasons (Jooris, Ferland, Grandlund) and others who should be due to work ethic (Reinhart, Knight, Hanowski) and finally others that will be soon (Bennett, Poirier). That's 8 young guys ahead of him.

Also counting current solid roster guys Gaudreau, Colborne, Stajan, Backlund, Hudler, Monahan, Raymond and probably Bollig and Byron.

So if he's a top 6 forward I'd say of the above mentioned players there are at least 10 top 6 players ahead of him (Gaudreau, Grandlund, Ferland, Bennett, Poirier, Colborne, Backlund, Hudler, Monahan, Raymond) that are not going to be going anywhere soon. Doubt they're gearing him to play on teh 3rd or 4th lines. They have a number of guys better suited for that role than him.

He will be traded. And at 3 points in 10 games in the AHL calling himself a skilled player, probably not for much.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by AcGold

I just don't get what the rush is with Sven. He's still got years on his contract, so what if he doesn't perform today. Trading him at minimum value isn't going to help. Let him mature. He's one prospect among dozens.

I would say there is a rush, especially if he hopes to be a player in the NHL at the level he thinks he should be. Star players have their best years between the ages of 25-29. That means he should have be at the point of having established himself as a player and start consistently scoring before hitting peak performance and output in that 25-29 band. The fact that he hasn't even established himself as a threat in the AHL is troubling. Maybe an example will help here.

The hardcore Baertschi supporters have pointed to Tyler Toffoli as an example of a player that Sven should be compared to. Well fine, but that comparison shows just how far back Baertschi is, and how much he has to prove. If Baertschi was to follow the similar path he should have ripped the AHL a new one two seasons ago. Last season Sven should have started strong in the AHL, ripping it up at almost a goal a game pace, and then made a push to the NHL squad. He should have made the club this year and been a contributor. As we can all see, Baertschi is way behind his fellow 22 year old competition, who had to fight his way onto a Stanley Cup Championship team, not a bottom feeder. This will give you some idea what comparisons the club and other teams are looking at and the uphill battle Sven has to face.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

When you feel strongly about something and people make baseless accusations, and then attack your posts because of it, it's hard to not be defensive. It goes both ways. I'm not going to let the bullies win just because there is a horde of them.

There are no bullies, just people who share a different opinion that yours.

You get upset because you feel everyone is against you. People here are only trying to figure out what is wrong Sven and you keep making excuses for him.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Wow such bad character.

Bad character and poor attitude are very different things.

I think Sven seems to have great character, but I think there's some attitude problems that don't even come from a bad place that are part of his issue right now.

But maybe that's your issue in this thread, you are associating all attitude issues a person can have to be synonymous with having bad character. No wonder you are so passionate if you believe folks on here are actually attacking Sven's core character. Not a chance, the kids got great intentions, he's just struggling a little bit on how to get where he wants to go, and what portions of it are his responsibility versus others.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by saillias

To discuss Friedman's 30 Thoughts,

There's obviously a huge market for defensemen right now. We should call up Wotherspoon and see what he can do, and gain an asset out of Smid or Diaz. I'm a fanboy of the kid but I think he's better than those 2 right now.

Let's say Wotherspoon sticks and the Flames move Smid or Diaz. What does the Flames roster look like if they lose a couple defencemen to injury? And does plugging that hole cost us more than the 3rd rounder we'd get for Smid or Diaz?

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Bad character and poor attitude are very different things.

I think Sven seems to have great character, but I think there's some attitude problems that don't even come from a bad place that are part of his issue right now.

But maybe that's your issue in this thread, you are associating all attitude issues a person can have to be synonymous with having bad character. No wonder you are so passionate if you believe folks on here are actually attacking Sven's core character. Not a chance, the kids got great intentions, he's just struggling a little bit on how to get where he wants to go, and what portions of it are his responsibility versus others.

I agree, however, I would say he has the [I]wrong[I] attitude, which is not as judgmental about his character as the word "bad" insinuates. I do believe he has good character as evidenced by his hard work, etc. but, as other posters have pointed out, he seems to have somewhat of a victim mentality with regards to his demotions and how the team has treated him.

No one is perfect. Even someone with a lot of character can have some attitudes that require adjustment.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Let's say Wotherspoon sticks and the Flames move Smid or Diaz. What does the Flames roster look like if they lose a couple defencemen to injury? And does plugging that hole cost us more than the 3rd rounder we'd get for Smid or Diaz?

Let him prove it in Addy first. It's not like he's been lights out down there or anything

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Let him prove it in Addy first. It's not like he's been lights out down there or anything

Yeah, that's my point. The Flames are desperately thin on defencemen depth already. We're in no position to be moving veterans out.

[cral12]

My Trade Wish List includes:
Flames sending Sven to NJ Devils for Adam Larsson who has struggled to crack NJD lineup with any consistency.
His value may slowly increase though, so the window to deal for him may have already passed...THW article highlights his season thus far.

[ForeverFlameFan]

^ While I do agree that we should go for Larsson while his value is low, I hope it isn't at the cost of Baertschi. If we can manage to give a lesser skilled prospect than Baertschi, Flames' fans would be thrilled.

[GioforPM]

Lesser skilled as in Jooris? I suspect not.

Lesser skilled as in Hanowski? Sure.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Lesser skilled as in Jooris? I suspect not.

Lesser skilled as in Hanowski? Sure.

I was thinking Hanowski/Agostino/Knight/Reinhart and adding a 2nd.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

^ While I do agree that we should go for Larsson while his value is low, I hope it isn't at the cost of Baertschi. If we can manage to give a lesser skilled prospect than Baertschi, Flames' fans would be thrilled.

You have to give to get. You also have to look at fit within the organization. Baertschi is looking more and more like a round peg trying to fit in the square hole. I actually think he's a better fit in the Jersey organization. The Flames are probably better served keeping some of those supposed lesser prospects as they fit in the organization better. The Flames really like those guys with good motors and there are several on the farm that could step up and play this year, many much less heralded than Baertschi. I'd much rather hold onto the likes of Reinhart, Knight, Agostino, Poirier and Arnold than see them shipped out in a deal instead of an underachieving player who had a big ceiling at one point.