Ryan Lambert article on sending Monahan down

[FlamesAddiction]

Could the Flames loan him to a European club?

I'm not even sure that would be a good idea or not, but just theoretically?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Commandant

Yes, its true that Monahan is playing 3rd and 4th line competition. However this level of competition is still greater than what he will see in the OHL.

The fact is Monahan is performing well against this competition, and the better players he plays against, the better it is for his development.

I don't think that going back to a league he's been in for 3 years (and dominated the last 2) will do as much for his development as staying in Calgary, even if he's playing 12:00 per night.

by dominated you mean his being 15th in scoring or 25th in goal scoring.

He was not on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd all star teams.


as for the playoffs last year his team did not make it. The year before he was 3rd in his own teams scoring. Great for his age but not close to being dominate.

There is significant accomplishments left for him to do and prove at the OHL level.

The experience of being a go to guy at the WJC and even the OHL playoffs are growth experiences that he won't likely get with the Flames the next 2 years..... unless the Heat makes a playoff run.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Freeway

Kent Wilson's latest on FN (http://flamesnation.ca/2013/10/11/se...d-with-caution) is a pretty realistic assessment of Monahan. He's not as good as his numbers appear, because he's getting the bounces. Does that mean he's not good? No. It's just that his numbers are bound to regress a bit over a longer stretch (such as an 82 game season).

So just don't expect a 90-100 point pace to continue is all.

This is why Corsi to me is a tool for nerds that can't tell a good player from a bad one by watching for themselves. Do we really need advanced stats to tell us something obvious like Monahan not likely keeping up with his pace for 80+ points this season? Really how long did Wilson have to spend looking at the Corsi stats to come up with that brilliant conclusion? I'm not saying Corsi is useless but at the end of the day it's not the be all end all and just a tool that only tells a small part of the story with players.

I have nothing against Wilson personally but I feel he comes off as a guy that bases most of his conclusions off an advanced stat sheet rather than actually watching the game and focusing on the players.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Could the Flames loan him to a European club?

I'm not even sure that would be a good idea or not, but just theoretically?

No. It's either the NHL or the OHL.

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

by dominated you mean his being 15th in scoring or 25th in goal scoring.

What you don't mention is that Monahan sat out for a 10 game suspension, plus Cody Ceci and Tyler Graovac were traded away and he still managed to finish 15th in the league in scoring.

I don't think there is any more for him to prove at that level.

He has earned his place on this team and I don't seen him going anywhere for the time being.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I am hardly an advanced stats geek, but I do think there is value to keep track of them (and there must be value, since teams actually do so).

It is just another tool to help remove bias (good and bad) from a player's game, and should be used in conjunction with a good pair of eyes. Disregarding what advanced stats has to offer just because someone writes a poor article on Monahan (or other articles that are similar in lack of thoroughness) isn't fair, and neither are the advanced stats geeks who cherry-pick certain stats just to prove their own points.

It is just another tool to help more accurately gauge a player's performance on the ice. It isn't the whole story, but it is (and should always be, IMO) part of the story.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

by dominated you mean his being 15th in scoring or 25th in goal scoring.

He was not on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd all star teams.

I would probably avoid the use of dominated but when you finish the season with nearly double the points as the next best forward, 15 year old Salituro, on the team that needs to be put in perspective. And he was still the first OHL player taken in the draft so the argument easily could be made that he was still the best 17/18 year old.

I'm in the group that as long as a player doesn't look out of place in the NHL that's likely the best place for development. We've already seen the type of payoff having Monahan train with Cammalleri had, why not extend it for the whole year in an NHL environment?

Throw in the added bonus of Baertschi talking about Monahan being here has made it easier to play his game and it might not only be Monahan's best course for development but Baertschi's as well.

[elpatzer]

Put me in the category of:

Before the season I was pretty sure I was on the side of sending him back. Ya' he had a good pre-season but it all changes in the regular season. 4 games in and my assessment was if this keeps up he needs to stay. I've watched most of the games and feel like he truly fits in.

The last two games haven't been so great (despite the game winner). Yes, he's an 18 year old and consistency can be a problem but it was still 2 bad games in a row (IMO). Also, it may not be 100% him, perhaps the old vets are finally starting to play at their normal regular season level and the games have just gotten that much tougher.

The next 3 games are pretty crucial to me. Like the first 4 ... he stays. Like the last 2 ... tough decision.

[ricardodw]

what happens to his ice time when the first line comes off of the IR ?

Cammalleri - Stajan - Jones

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by elpatzer

Put me in the category of:

Before the season I was pretty sure I was on the side of sending him back. Ya' he had a good pre-season but it all changes in the regular season. 4 games in and my assessment was if this keeps up he needs to stay. I've watched most of the games and feel like he truly fits in.

The last two games haven't been so great (despite the game winner). Yes, he's an 18 year old and consistency can be a problem but it was still 2 bad games in a row (IMO). Also, it may not be 100% him, perhaps the old vets are finally starting to play at their normal regular season level and the games have just gotten that much tougher.

The next 3 games are pretty crucial to me. Like the first 4 ... he stays. Like the last 2 ... tough decision.

Were they bad games, or just not "so great"? What I mean is, I don't think he had bad games. He just didn't have a good game, and scored the game winner in the other. Can hardly categorize that as a bad game.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

what happens to his ice time when the first line comes off of the IR ?

Cammalleri - Stajan - Jones

I'd be more concerned with Baertschi's ice time in that scenario than Monahan's. Monahan shouldn't be affected by Stajan's return at all. Street should be the one whose ice time drops when Stajan returns.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

what happens to his ice time when the first line comes off of the IR ?

Cammalleri - Stajan - Jones

It likely stays the same.

Not sure what two wingers are going to do to his ice time as Jones likely drops Bouma back down to the 4th line, Cammy puts Galiardi to the 4th line or 3rd if they want to drop Baertschi and Stajan replaces Street.

Most likely with those three back Monahan still remains in the 3rd line (for ice time not traditional role) spot at center.

[C-ero]

Baertschi-Monahan-Cammalleri

Glencross-Stajan-Jones

Hudler-Backlund-Stempniak

I'd like to see something like this when everyone is healthy.

[ricardodw]

and Street playing against the other teams best centre is a -1

So basically basically what I am hearing is that it is all BS about wanting the players to earn their ice time.

Street has filled in as the #1 centre for the 3-1-2 Flames playing even up against Getzlaff, Elias, Eller and Sedin

Street has 6 hits and 4 blocked shots and is a -1. He is getting over a minute a game on the PK.


If you took the names and numbers off of the players there would be no way that Street loses his spot in the top 3 centres when Stajan comes back.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

and Street playing against the other teams best centre is a -1

So basically basically what I am hearing is that it is all BS about wanting the players to earn their ice time.

Street has filled in as the #1 centre for the 3-1-2 Flames playing even up against Getzlaff, Elias, Eller and Sedin

Street has 6 hits and 4 blocked shots and is a -1. He is getting over a minute a game on the PK.


If you took the names and numbers off of the players there would be no way that Street loses his spot in the top 3 centres when Stajan comes back.

Well I guess it is a good thing the names are on the jersey to see that offense dies when the puck hits Streets stick, he is routinely outmuscled for pucks and more often then not out of the play whether in the offensive or defensive zone.

He has looked like a AHL player out there that can win FO's. If the Flames want to keep him on the 4th line to win FO's I guess it wouldn't be so bad but I would rather see a guy like Blair Jones who is a better player and likely equal FO guy or Colborne who may not win FO's but at least has some talent.

Your obssession with blocked shots and hits is getting more than ridiculous now. They are interesting to look at but far from something that should be used to evaluate players and far down the list of useful stats.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by moon

Well I guess it is a good thing the names are on the jersey to see that offense dies when the puck hits Streets stick, he is routinely outmuscled for pucks and more often then not out of the play whether in the offensive or defensive zone.

He has looked like a AHL player out there that can win FO's. If the Flames want to keep him on the 4th line to win FO's I guess it wouldn't be so bad but I would rather see a guy like Blair Jones who is a better player and likely equal FO guy or Colborne who may not win FO's but at least has some talent.

Your obssession with blocked shots and hits is getting more than ridiculous now. They are interesting to look at but far from something that should be used to evaluate players and far down the list of useful stats.

You think that Monahan/ Colbourne is close to being ready to going up against Getzlaf and Sedin? Will he get there this season?

I agree that from his past play as a Flame Blair Jones could and likely should be handling the job of going up against Getzlaff, Thorton and Kopitar...


If Monahan was stuck on on Icing the other team would send out their best line in order to get the mismatch.


PS> It just dawned on me that I am making the same argument in favour of Street that the Bouwmeester fan boys were making about JBo. He doesn't do a heck of a lot but he plays against the other teams best players and in not frequently embarrassed. who else do the Flames have that can fill that role.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

You think that Monahan/ Colbourne is close to being ready to going up against Getzlaf and Sedin? Will he get there this season?

I agree that from his past play as a Flame Blair Jones could and likely should be handling the job of going up against Getzlaff, Thorton and Kopitar...


If Monahan was stuck on on Icing the other team would send out their best line in order to get the mismatch.

I think Monahan is as ready as Street is/has shown.

I would say 90% of centers in the league aren't ready to go up against the top guys though so not sure why Monahan is getting singled out. Keeping Ben Street here doesn't do much to stop teams from putting out their top line against him right now if they want.

[ricardodw]

Would it be worth it to have Monahan step up in the next 2 NHL games of the year and play head to head with Thornton and Kopitar? (Between Glencross and Stempniak)

I think that would be a move that would find out if he is ready for a full NHL season this year.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by moon

I think Monahan is as ready as Street is/has shown.

I would say 90% of centers in the league aren't ready to go up against the top guys though so not sure why Monahan is getting singled out. Keeping Ben Street here doesn't do much to stop teams from putting out their top line against him right now if they want.

Hartley sure as heck doesn't agree with your evaluation of the readiness of the two.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Would it be worth it to have Monahan step up in the next 2 NHL games of the year and play head to head with Thornton and Kopitar? (Between Glencross and Stempniak)

I think that would be a move that would find out if he is ready for a full NHL season this year.

That's a ridiculous idea. That's just setting him up to fail. He isn't ready to go up against those guys.