[OOT] Melee between Toronto and Buffalo

[calumniate]

That's some craziness right there. Of all the 'star' players, it seems like Kessel would be the best candidate to be picked on. He's lacking in some of the social skill department and likely couldn't talk his way out of it. I'm pretty sure guys like Stamkos and St. Louis would have been able to diffuse this kind of thing, and / or the respect level is such that it would never happen.

Still, it all stemmed from Tropp getting a concussion and I can see why Scott wanted to do something. That said I'm sure Kessel is happy to have gotten out alive!

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Quincy Egg

You don't need to be on the ice for a considerable amount of time to take swipes at a guy.

Since you watched the game in its entirety maybe you can explain why Kessel was taking swipes at Scott? Did he have a death wish? Because it makes no sense.

Frankly you're the first person I've seen claim this and I call bologna.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The rather enormous difference between a pure enforcer like Scott and agitators like Clutterbuck or Torres is that the latter can actually take a regular shift and play the game. I have no problem with players whose primary role is to disrupt and interfere with the forward progress and puck possession of the opposition, but this is almost universally more effective when it occurs in the course of actual play.

I could make an argument that players like Torres and Cooke are worse for the game than pure enforcers.

Usually enforcers only go after other enforcers, or players taking runs at stars. Aggitators like Torres and Cooke have had more run-ins with the discipline committee than pure enforcers, and probably cause more injuries.

[Tron_fdc]

Just skimmed the thread and didn't see it mentioned:

Did the goalies pull their own helmets off? Because that's now a suspension. Interesting to see how the league handles that.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by calumniate

That's some craziness right there. Of all the 'star' players, it seems like Kessel would be the best candidate to be picked on. He's lacking in some of the social skill department and likely couldn't talk his way out of it. I'm pretty sure guys like Stamkos and St. Louis would have been able to diffuse this kind of thing, and / or the respect level is such that it would never happen.

Still, it all stemmed from Tropp getting a concussion and I can see why Scott wanted to do something. That said I'm sure Kessel is happy to have gotten out alive!

Why? Tropp didn't get jumped. He got in a fight willingly and unfortunately landed on his head and was concussed. I just don't get this thinking, if a guy gets cheap shotted sure, but that didn't happen. What is Scott avenging? Tropp not winning a fight? So after any fight that doesn't go well a team should be sending their goon out there to attack someone?

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Just skimmed the thread and didn't see it mentioned:

Did the goalies pull their own helmets off? Because that's now a suspension. Interesting to see how the league handles that.

I thought that was only a 2 minute penalty?

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Did anyone ask any of the Leafs coaches why Kessel was out there in the first place? Of course they have the right to send out whomever they wish, but you would think after just seeing a fight a few seconds earlier and then Scott on the ice that they would just throw out their plugs to play it safe. I'd be interested to hear why they decided to put out a player like Kessel in that situation.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by valo403

I actually don't think there's anything wrong with the first swing.

Its never OK to wrecklessly swing your stick like that...ever. Guys have lost eyes because of wayward sticks, and as a result it is explicitly forbidden under NHL rules.

It's at his legs, it isn't going to do any serious damage and he's about to get his head caved in if he doesn't do something.

Nonsense. Again forget about the Barry Bonds imitation, all Kessel had to do was take or 5 strides away from Scott to not be engaged with him.

The follow ups from the back go too far, but honestly I'm fine with a guy like Scott getting taken out of the game in any fashion. I like fighting in hockey, but he's a joke.

Be fine with it all you like, but that is not what is at the heart of the discussion here. This is about a player being completely wreckless with his stick and intending to injure another player who has every right to protection from the rules as any other. Whether or not people like the enforcer role in hockey is irrelevant. Fighting is an accepted and completely accepted part of the game, always has been and still is. If you dont want to fight someone there is nothing preventing you from skating away...what isnt acceptable is using your stick as a weapon.

Maybe you would have been OK with Kessell going right at Scotts head and taking his eyes out/concussing him/caving his skull in? Afterall that would have gotten Scott "out of the game in any fashion"....right?

I would expect that Buffalo players to a man have Kessell targeted each and every game the rest of this season for what he did lst night, and it will be compolete entertainment to watch it unfold. He will be held accountable.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Its never OK to wrecklessly swing your stick like that...ever. Guys have lost eyes because of wayward sticks, and as a result it is explicitly forbidden under NHL rules.



Nonsense. Again forget about the Barry Bonds imitation, all Kessel had to do was take or 5 strides away from Scott to not be engaged with him.





Be fine with it all you like, but that is not what is at the heart of the discussion here. This is about a player being completely wreckless with his stick and intending to injure another player who has every right to protection from the rules as any other. Whether or not people like the enforcer role in hockey is irrelevant. Fighting is an accepted and completely accepted part of the game, always has been and still is. If you dont want to fight someone there is nothing preventing you from skating away...what isnt acceptable is using your stick as a weapon.

Maybe you would have been OK with Kessell going right at Scotts head and taking his eyes out/concussing him/caving his skull in? Afterall that would have gotten Scott "out of the game in any fashion"....right?

I would expect that Buffalo players to a man have Kessell targeted each and every game the rest of this season for what he did lst night, and it will be compolete entertainment to watch it unfold. He will be held accountable.

Yep

[SofaProfessor]

I hate Kessel but if that was me and a professional goon was looking down on me with a major size difference in both height and weight... I'm swinging that stick higher and harder than Kessel did.

Clarkson is a moron. Going to miss the first month of the season because he decided to do his best Biznasty impression during a preseason game. Leave those antics for the guys trying to crack the lineup.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Did anyone ask any of the Leafs coaches why Kessel was out there in the first place? Of course they have the right to send out whomever they wish, but you would think after just seeing a fight a few seconds earlier and then Scott on the ice that they would just throw out their plugs to play it safe. I'd be interested to hear why they decided to put out a player like Kessel in that situation.

Thats my biggest issue as well...Toronto had last change and Carlyle sends out Kessel against John Scott? What did he think would be the result? Scott was out there for a reason....and it wasnt to play defense against Toronto's top players.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Did anyone ask any of the Leafs coaches why Kessel was out there in the first place? Of course they have the right to send out whomever they wish, but you would think after just seeing a fight a few seconds earlier and then Scott on the ice that they would just throw out their plugs to play it safe. I'd be interested to hear why they decided to put out a player like Kessel in that situation.

Carlyle said he was trying to diffuse the situation by putting skill guys out there, which is legitimate. Goons like Scott generally don't go after a guy like Kessel, they have more honor that. Except Scott apparently doesn't have that honor.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by valo403

Yep

Hey...they were your words not mine.

At least I know where you stand now.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Hey...they were your words not mine.

At least I know where you stand now.

nm, not worth a response

[transplant99]

Well I am curious as to what you meant....i mean how do you get anyone out of the game in "any fashion".

Cant legislate them out as teams can sign whomever they like to play.

So beyond that, not sure what other means there are to get those guys out for good, short of banning fighting alltogether which will never happen because the fans simply dont want it that way.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by valo403

Carlyle said he was trying to diffuse the situation by putting skill guys out there, which is legitimate. Goons like Scott generally don't go after a guy like Kessel, they have more honor that. Except Scott apparently doesn't have that honor.

Hmmm........I don't know. I just don't see what the point was in a meaningless pre-season game to attempt that. During the season in a game where the points matter? Sure. A pre-season game that has no bearing on anything? I'd be leaving my best players on the bench. Not a smart move at all by the coaching staff, IMO.

[M*A*S*H 4077]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Just skimmed the thread and didn't see it mentioned:

Did the goalies pull their own helmets off? Because that's now a suspension. Interesting to see how the league handles that.

I was just coming in here to ask if the new rule applies to goalies, does it?

[WilderPegasus]

Originally Posted by valo403

Carlyle said he was trying to diffuse the situation by putting skill guys out there, which is legitimate. Goons like Scott generally don't go after a guy like Kessel, they have more honor that. Except Scott apparently doesn't have that honor.

I'd be a lot less judgemental of Carlyle if he didn't dress two useless goons on a regular basis. Carlyle likes to use intimidation when it suits him but when it doesn't he tries to chicken out of it by matching up his star player against a player he knows is being put out there for retribution. Then Kessel pokes the bear literally instead of trying to defuse the situation.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The rather enormous difference between a pure enforcer like Scott and agitators like Clutterbuck or Torres is that the latter can actually take a regular shift and play the game. I have no problem with players whose primary role is to disrupt and interfere with the forward progress and puck possession of the opposition, but this is almost universally more effective when it occurs in the course of actual play.

Where do you draw the line? Who gets to draw that line? Zach Kaissan is an agitator that can play and he made an incredibly dirty play that cost the Oilers Gagner for an extended period of time. If you're going to eliminate the goon you need to eliminate the #### disturber because one is used to keep the other in check. That is part of the game of chess that goes on prior to the face off and during the play.

Seriously? I would expect he was out there to make a hockey play. He is, after all a pretty damn good hockey player.

Doubt that. Carlyle has been around the game long enough to know what is going to happen. He just witnessed one of his hired thugs send a kid to the hospital and the Sabres send out their thug. I'm sure he thought, "Hey, this is a great time to try and score a goal. Buffalo isn't trying to send a message or start something here. Let's play some hockey!"

I would like to know what your take on Devane, a 6'5 230 pound goon, with no hockey ability what so ever, beating the crap out of 6'0 185 pound Tropp, who was a 2nd year pro out of college, where they don't fight! See a similarity there?

Wrong. The pure hockey enforcers are becoming an endangered species precisely because of what is happening now where teams are more and more focused on ensuring that every position is filled by players who can make hockey plays.

You may want to take a look at rosters around the league to see that the enforcer isn't dying. The Leafs sat two of the biggest goons and still had one in the lineup to handle matters like these. I'd love to see these guys go the way of the dodo, but the reality is that they are here to stay as long as the antagonist role exists.

I guess you also missed my follow up line where I said, "What is happening is that teams are now trying to find guys that can intimidate and contribute to some position in some meaningful way."

For the same reason that these types of players are a dying breed. Carlyle likely realised the opportunity to take advantage of the massive skill mismatch between an actual hockey player like Kessel and a barely skating, mouth-breathing pugilist who is more apt to be victimised for his obvious playing deficiencies than he is to make any perceptible impact to the score.

Does this have to be written in fragmented ancient Greek for you to make an inference of what is going to happen? Come on, you've been watching hockey for years and you know how the game is played, especially in pre-season. There was no way Carlyle was putting his guys out there to score. He knew Scott was going to drop his mitts the second the puck left the linesman's hand. The only thing he had to do was to control the situation and throw someone out there to fight the guy and diffuse the situation.

I have already agreed that Kessel goaded Scott, but there is virtually no way to judge from the video evidence whom between the two players is more culpable. One cannot simply call one or the other the instigator in this, although I will maintain that were Scott not on the ice in the first place, this incident does not happen.

I will maintain that if Carlyle had answered accordingly the only thing we would be discussing here is Tropp's concussion and why guys like Devane are still in the game.

I am not ignoring the actions of Kessel whom I have already agreed shares culpability. What I have been attempting to do is to better emphasise the balance by way of showing that players like Scott simply have no useful function in today's game, and their continued (but diminishing) presence only tends to result in these sorts of events that are not related, or tangential to the action during play.

You're right, the Scotts of the game should not exist. But as long as the agitator exists and other goons are used by every team in the league the Scotts will continue to be there. And don't try and tell me you do not see the value in these guys. All you have to do is look at the difference between the Flames pre-McGratton last season and then post-McGratton. Night and day.

Again, I suspect it was to MAKE A HOCKEY PLAY.

Wrong. We just finished mopping up a mess where an undersized two way player was attacked and beaten into submission by a hired thug. Buffalo immediately sends their thug out. You think some hockey is about to be played? Don't play naive.

I'm not really that interested in guessing about Carlyle's motives, and you may very well be right: It could very well be that Carlyle was attempting to illicit a reactionary response. We can't know for certain anything beyond this: between Kessel and Scott there is only one hockey player, and there is a good bet that his presence on the ice is expected to result in some sort of hockey play. Since the other participant cannot play the game, then I really think that despite the Leaf's possession of last change, the onus is on the other coach to provide some explanation for his presence on the ice. I will repeat: It was NOT to play hockey.

You're right, it was not to play hockey. It was to send a message. Carlyle refused to receive the message and mayhem ensued. That is the Buffalo coach's problem?

This simply isn't good enough. If you don't agree with making concessions for the inclusion of players that cannot play hockey, then there should be excuse here. Throwing your hands up and chalking it up to "part of the game" is lazy and defeatist.

Then take your case to the NHL. Better yet, when you move back to Canada or the US don't attend games. Don't watch games, don't have anything to do with the NHL until they do something about this issue. The dollar and your viewing habits can be very democratizing. If you feel so greatly about this issue do something about it, otherwise you're just being lazy and defeatist. I personally recognize this is part of the game and is not going to change soon. I don't condone it, but I recognize there is a reason for its existence and I accept it. Kind of like trash talking and overt celebrations of even the simplest play in the NFL. I think they're stupid and have no place in the game, but they're here to stay. It is a cultural aspect of the game that we have force the leagues to change by not watching.

Code be damned. There are MANY things that were once part of the game and have become obsolete, and it is high time that the enforcer was finally eliminated along with the rest of these dinosaurs. With how few of them there are left in the NHL; with the number of teams that no longer have one on their roster; with the way the game has evolved so far beyond their purpose, I can't think of a single good reason to continue with the charade. "Tradition" is only effective insofar is it reflects something meaningful in the current realia, and goon-fighting in today's NHL fails to conform. It has become arbitrary and it bears almost no resemblance to its place in so-called "old time hockey".

I agree with what you are saying but the reality is that fighting is good for the league. The teams know it and the league knows it. I don't see any trend where goons are falling out of favor. I see goons getting more skilled and teams trying to use them in a regular shift, but they are not going away. The Flames drafted Kanzig not because he reminded them of Chara with his outstanding defensive play. They drafted him because he's a monster and beats the crap out of anyone who looks at him sideways. The goon and fighting is here to stay, no matter how much we complain. In fact, our complaints might make it easier for the league to justify their existence, because any publicity is good publicity.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Hmmm........I don't know. I just don't see what the point was in a meaningless pre-season game to attempt that. During the season in a game where the points matter? Sure. A pre-season game that has no bearing on anything? I'd be leaving my best players on the bench. Not a smart move at all by the coaching staff, IMO.

Well what's the point in entertaining that garbage from the Sabres? Put a guy like Kessel out there with the expectation that Scott has enough brain cells to remember that part of 'the code' that says goons like him don't go after guys like Kessel, and get on with actually playing hockey.