Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

So you don't like intolerance in NA, but encourage it elsewhere to be tolerant?

The right to life (once born, pre birth is whole other kettle of wax) and freedom are fundamental human rights agreed to by all nations. Sexual orientation and expression falls into that freedom part.

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

We signed up for that. Sticking a patch on a hockey jersey is a small price to pay for maintaining the moral high ground.

Actually I don't like the hypocrisy and the attitude like we know everything.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

We don't know everything...but knowing when someone is bullied is not hard.

Knowing that people shouldn't tolerate bullies is apparantely trickier.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Actually I don't like the hypocrisy and the attitude like we know everything.

Please explain "like we know everything" a little further? Are you suggesting that we don't actually know if this ######ed law is ######ed, or that we don't yet know whether gay people deserve equal rights? I don't know what the hell you're trying to say, but please expand.

[Da_Chief]

Has anyone said it? Fozzie_DeBear is gay! lol

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Actually I don't like the hypocrisy and the attitude like we know everything.

You're shrugging off any real answer or any possibility of having social responsibility. Based on your logic (and I'm sure people are going to enjoy this being brought up again) the holocaust was fine, right? I mean, it fits the bill for you. It's a different culture, it's their own laws, so why should we pass judgement on what is right or wrong? Please, grow up and have a backbone. Letting other cultures function the way they want is PART of what NA is all about, especially here in Canada. But what ISN'T acceptable is the abuse of human rights, the jailing of people who are born a certain way, or the killing of people (full stop, your culture doesn't get to take life).

Quit playing the "oh well gee golly it's not our place card" and realise that attitude is supporting these human rights abuses. You bring this up as a reason for it being wrong for us to wear a patch supporting LGBT rights, but that is hypocritical, as we are representing part of our culture, something which you say isn't anyone's place to pass judgement on.

The only hypocrite here is you, sorry dude.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Has anyone said it? Fozzie_DeBear is gay! lol

Nope...If I was I'd say so.

But don't worry you'll find someone to date soon

[WilderPegasus]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Nope...If I was I'd say so.

But don't worry you'll find someone to date soon

I'm starting to think that you just created this thread to troll users who don't share your view on this matter. Especially since there was already a thread on this same topic in the Off Topic forum.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Actually I don't like the hypocrisy and the attitude like we know everything.

In this case 'we' is almost 100% of the planet.

Feel free to keep holding out. You are a dwindling breed anyway.

More and more people are willing to demonstrate a little bit of activism. It's happening all over the world. All you have to do in your cozy home is wear a patch or sign a petition. In some places in the world people are risking their lives on the streets to get their rights back.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

I'm starting to think that you just created this thread to troll users who don't share your view on this matter. Especially since there was already a thread on this same topic in the Off Topic forum.

Ah yes, it's Fozzie's fault for making the backward thinking ######s look bad.........stupid bear.

[Lanny'sDaMan]

It amazes me that anyone can stand on the side of the Russian laws here. Laws are not always correct or fair and as such must be challenged when they go against the rights of all humans to live and love in peace. Do I care if 75% or so agree with the law? Nope, because it is still unjust.

As for should the players wear a rainbow? No. If the players are serious about sending a message then they should boycott the games. THAT is a loud and clear message being sent.

My 2 cents.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by strombad

You're shrugging off any real answer or any possibility of having social responsibility. Based on your logic (and I'm sure people are going to enjoy this being brought up again) the holocaust was fine, right? I mean, it fits the bill for you. It's a different culture, it's their own laws, so why should we pass judgement on what is right or wrong? Please, grow up and have a backbone. Letting other cultures function the way they want is PART of what NA is all about, especially here in Canada. But what ISN'T acceptable is the abuse of human rights, the jailing of people who are born a certain way, or the killing of people (full stop, your culture doesn't get to take life).

Quit playing the "oh well gee golly it's not our place card" and realise that attitude is supporting these human rights abuses. You bring this up as a reason for it being wrong for us to wear a patch supporting LGBT rights, but that is hypocritical, as we are representing part of our culture, something which you say isn't anyone's place to pass judgement on.

The only hypocrite here is you, sorry dude.

I never said anything was wrong about wearing a patch. I think it is perfectly fine for individuals to express their personal beliefs. I think it is wrong for an organization to force that upon people though. My best friend is a lesbian, a Hindi lesbian at that. I hear everything she goes through with her family, but guess what? While it hurts her, she understands that the culture is against it and she knows changes cannot be forced. They need to come at their own pace.

Just because I am not judging a society because they aren't as tolerant as we claim to be, does not make me a hypocrite.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by WilderPegasus

I'm starting to think that you just created this thread to troll users who don't share your view on this matter. Especially since there was already a thread on this same topic in the Off Topic forum.

If by 'not sharing my view' you mean people who think people should have differing sets of rights based upon genetics...then yes Ill tease those folks until the end of time. I see them as bullies pure and simple.

And I created this thread to have an open dialogue about the idea of the poster children for Canadian sport (men's and women's hockey) showing where they stood as individuals about the idea of making sexual orientation criminal.

I'm glad this thread is in the FOI section, if for no other reason that it brought fresh people into the discussion that don't read the off topic forum.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I never said anything was wrong about wearing a patch. I think it is perfectly fine for individuals to express their personal beliefs. I think it is wrong for an organization to force that upon people though. My best friend is a lesbian, a Hindi lesbian at that. I hear everything she goes through with her family, but guess what? While it hurts her, she understands that the culture is against it and she knows changes cannot be forced. They need to come at their own pace.

Just because I am not judging a society because they aren't as tolerant as we claim to be, does not make me a hypocrite.

Pretty much every prominient name in history, either new or old, would disagree with you. In fact I believe that they would all say that the exact opposite of what you (and your friend) claim is true.

Society changes when people force it to change. Whether that force is a violent revolution or a passive resistance does not matter, it still requires people to actively force the society's change to occur. If no one forces change to take place, odds are nothing will change because the other people will be actively trying to force things to stay the way they are.

I believe that your friend feels that this is too big of a cause for her to take on but the change will not come naturally, it will occur because someone else takes action and forces the issue.

The same thing with Russia. They may be massively homophobic to the point of killing their friends and relatives if they find out that they are gay. The only way change will occur is if the global community stops them, tells them they are wrong, shames them and pressures them into fixing their society's thinking.

[corporatejay]

Saying "we can't judge culture X" is such a cop out.

We're not debating cultural dress or rules regarding consumption of alcohol in public, we're debating fundamental human rights, and when it comes to human rights it's okay to say, we're better and we're judging you for being a back asswards society.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Please explain "like we know everything" a little further? Are you suggesting that we don't actually know if this ######ed law is ######ed, or that we don't yet know whether gay people deserve equal rights? I don't know what the hell you're trying to say, but please expand.

From a certain perspective (one I happen to share) the ######ed law is ######ed, but it being ######ed is not an objective fact and from another perspective it's not ######ed. Hypocrisy might be the wrong way to put it, but maybe it could be described as fanatical self assurance about universal adherence to a particular moral position. Of course there's an internal consistency with that moral position that supports pushing others to conform, but that moral position isn't universal and those not sharing it could certainly be expected to find the insistence annoying or inappropriate or unfair. Also, while believing fervently seems to provide its own moral justification for trying to change the world it also makes someone else attempting to change our own passionately held beliefs offensive to us because we so fervently believe them. That may be how he sees it as hypocritical.

I can see that I'm not making an objective statement when I say that gay people (or any people) have a right to be treated equally, but I'm passionate enough about the world view to say "Screw objectivity! My world view is better!" Now I don't know for sure, but giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe ABbeef is just the one pointing out that this is what we're doing.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Pretty much every prominient name in history, either new or old, would disagree with you. In fact I believe that they would all say that the exact opposite of what you (and your friend) claim is true.

Society changes when people force it to change. Whether that force is a violent revolution or a passive resistance does not matter, it still requires people to actively force the society's change to occur. If no one forces change to take place, odds are nothing will change because the other people will be actively trying to force things to stay the way they are.

I believe that your friend feels that this is too big of a cause for her to take on but the change will not come naturally, it will occur because someone else takes action and forces the issue.

The same thing with Russia. They may be massively homophobic to the point of killing their friends and relatives if they find out that they are gay. The only way change will occur is if the global community stops them, tells them they are wrong, shames them and pressures them into fixing their society's thinking.

and that is why thousands of innocent people die in unneeded wars because people think they have to force chance.

also it's not the global community that wants to stop Russia, its North America and Western Europe. In fact the large majority of the world is even worse than Russia when it comes to gay rights.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I never said anything was wrong about wearing a patch. I think it is perfectly fine for individuals to express their personal beliefs. I think it is wrong for an organization to force that upon people though. My best friend is a lesbian, a Hindi lesbian at that. I hear everything she goes through with her family, but guess what? While it hurts her, she understands that the culture is against it and she knows changes cannot be forced. They need to come at their own pace.

Just because I am not judging a society because they aren't as tolerant as we claim to be, does not make me a hypocrite.

It ABSOLUTELY does. You are essentially saying that it's ok for other societies to be intolerant of certain genetic developments, and then ridiculing our society for being intolerant towards that intolerance. It's the definition of hypocrite, plain and simple. As far as changing society goes, change is almost never purely gradual. People force changes constantly. The civil war, women's rights, the troubles... there are constant occurrences of changes being forced when a group is pushed to a point when they are done being treated as lesser people. Your "lesbian Hindi" friend that you've created gives you no weight here.

Besides, I'd still like to hear your theories on the holocaust, on cultural practices in India involving female castration and acid burning, on women being stoned to death, slavery, African genocide, honour killings, chemical weapons in Syria, etc. Tell me point blank that you're ok with all of that because "it's not our place to judge" and I won't harass you about it anymore. Don't dodge the question, answer it directly. Are you ok with allowing all of the above to occur?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

In fact the large majority of the world is even worse than Russia when it comes to gay rights.

In fact a large majority of the world still ####s in a hole in the ground at the end of their yard...........

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Now I don't know for sure, but giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe ABbeef is just the one pointing out that this is what we're doing.

this is exactly what I am saying.

I am not against gay rights by any means, but there is a reason why such a large percentage of people in Russia are anti-gay. What that is, I don't think any of us really know, but for some reason it is something they really believe strongly in. I can't in good conscience tell them they are wrong when I do not understand why they believe so strongly in it.

I think it's better to understand why, rather than just instantly trashing them as a culture. Look what happened the moment korzym12 said he didn't support gay rights, he was immediately attacked left right and center without a single person even trying to understand why he thinks like he does. The way he was treated is not that much different than the way gays are being treated in Russia to be quite frank, it was a disgusting display of bullying just because someone believed something different.

And then what happened? korzym12 fought back and even more jumped in and things got out of hand.

Societies can't change until the thinking behind it changes. So until there is an understanding of why, forcing change when such an overwhelming majority are against it will just fail miserably.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

In fact a large majority of the world still ####s in a hole in the ground at the end of their yard...........

Good point. Their moral views are less valid because they're poor.