[Trade] Cory Schneider to NJ for #9 overall (Bo Horvat)

[foshizzle11]

MOD EDIT: Off topic, spoiler.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by getbak

What a gong show. They should have just bit the bullet and bought out Lou, the damage is already done. He might have been picked up on waivers.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by jesters91

And for those worried Feast'r'Famine was the one going after Schneider...



http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...move-surprises

I think Gillis probably wishes the Flyers were more interested because they had the type of NHL ready players the Canucks need

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

The cap hit is fine. Of course it is — that's how the deal was structured. That isn't the problem. There were many MANY people who thought this was a bad deal from the start. Saying that it is a casualty of the new CBA is revisionist history. From the moment the ink was dry on that deal people wondered how long it would be before the Canucks wanted out from under it. Granted, this date came much sooner than expected. But I fully remember people thinking that it might be better for the Canucks if the league overturned the Luongo contract. This outcome was extremely predictable.

oh ya there were definitely people who disagreed with it, I just remember the pro vastly outweighing the cons

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Monahan and Drouin were drafted 3 apart. I am sure you agree that there is no discernible difference between them as well?

Plus it could be argued that Horvat was taken a bit early for his ranking, but we'll ignore that.

my point was moreso in general that the draft is impossible to judge that same day

Here are the groupings of 6th and 9th picks from 2004-2010

neither group leaps above the other

Couture and OEL are the only current elite players

6th overall
Montoya
Brule
Brassard
Gagner
Filatov
OEL
Connolly

9th overall
Smid
Brian Lee
Sheppard
Couture
Bailey
Cowan
Granlund

[19Yzerman19]

Once you're outside the "lottery pick" guys, there's a ton of error bar on everyone. The bust potential is higher, but more importantly the "ends up as a depth player" potential is much higher. At this stage, it's really pretty impossible to say that Monahan or Horvat is a better prospect. Both have advantages over the other, both have areas to improve upon. Monahan could end up being a #1C at the NHL level and Horvat could be a fourth liner, or vice versa, and the odds of each aren't significantly different.

Basically Monahan is a slightly surer bet than Horvat with slightly higher upside. Hence he went a couple of picks earlier. But because there's so much margin of error, there's not that much to choose between them.

Now, had Vancouver done the smart thing and taken Nichushkin (who actually is a lottery pick quality talent) we'd be having a different discussion. They screwed the pooch on that one.

[Erick Estrada]

Report cards coming out and maybe I was a bit too high on their picks as they graded out so far as below average (Flames get A's btw).

NHL Scout Grant Sonier:

Vancouver Canucks: B
Stepping up to select Bo Horvat with the ninth overall pick showed just how much value the team puts into a complete player. And they'll hope he's up to the pressure he'll face as the sole return for Cory Schneider. Horvat is a big-time performer and was the OHL playoff MVP. I see great offensive upside with this three-zone player. If Hunter Shinkaruk hits he could be a big-time scorer, but I have my doubts.

Craig Custance:

Vancouver Canucks: D

Received: No. 9 overall pick (Bo Horvat)

Making the decision to trade Schneider instead of Roberto Luongo wasn't necessarily the wrong choice. Especially since a buyout of Luongo's deal wasn't an option.

"I don't think anybody wants to buy out players for $25 million dollars," GM Mike Gillis said. "We look at all our alternatives. This wasn't a viable alternative."

But ultimately the haul for Schneider wasn't nearly as high as expected. You can't help but wonder if the Canucks waited too long to make this decision, costing Gillis the chance to maximize the value of a goalie who could be among the best in the league once he earns the starting job in New Jersey. Horvat may turn out to be a good player for the Canucks but that's a trade that looks to be lopsided in Lamoriello's favor right now.

"The goaltender market is difficult," Gillis said. "It's really challenging. You have to have a great one to win but it's a challenging marketplace. It's much more difficult to figure out than positional players."

And on top of it all, the Canucks have to smooth over a relationship with Luongo that is at best complicated and probably a little strained. When Gillis chatted with media on Sunday after the trade, he hadn't spoken with Luongo but fully expected him to fulfill his contract. Schneider said it isn't always that easy.

"You have to keep in mind how he felt about this and where he is at and if he's comfortable assuming the role," Schneider said. "After today, it's like anything can happen."

[moon]

I agree that anything that anything can happen and Horvat could end up being the better player but Monahan is better than a slightly better version. He is the clearly better prospect, clearly better upside and a much better bet.

Again that doesn't mean that he will turn out better but to make it out like they are neck and neck is silly.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by moon

I agree that anything that anything can happen and Horvat could end up being the better player but Monahan is better than a slightly better version. He is the clearly better prospect, clearly better upside and a much better bet.

Again that doesn't mean that he will turn out better but to make it out like they are neck and neck is silly.

There was a reason the Oilers and Senators were interested in trading up to get Monahan. Oilers in particular passed on Horvat once the Flames took Monahan. Monahan was regarded by every consensus as the better prospect. Debating who may be the better player is one thing but it cannot be debated which player was regarded as the better prospect.

[Enoch Root]

I'll add one more thing...

Schneider was one of Vancouver's most valuable assets. Obviously they have the Sedins and Kesler. Some would list Burrows next, or maybe Hamhuis/Edler/Bieksa, whatever your preference.

But it would be hard to argue that Schneider would be any worse than 5th or 6th: potential #1, potential all-star goalie on a decent contract.

Horvat is a solid prospect and I would have loved to have him join the Flames fold. But there is no way in hell that the Canucks got better from that trade. Horvat could be contributing to the team in a couple years as a 3rd line C (something they need). But the Nucks window is now and they had to give away one of their best players - just entering his prime - for a pick.

To call that anything other than a failure is a stretch IMO.

[19Yzerman19]

I would actually say Hamhuis and Edler are their most valuable assets because of their contracts - look at what top four defensemen are getting paid now. Both of those guys are a step above a Mark Streit and are getting paid less - substantially less in Hamhuis's case. That said, though...

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

To call that anything other than a failure is a stretch IMO.

Yup.

They should have been targeting a roster player plus a later pick. I'll say it again, the only way this deal makes sense is if they use the pick on Nichushkin, who can play in the NHL right now. The added benefit there is that you take up a roster spot with an ELC and thus give yourself some cap help, which that team sorely needs. Horvat will I'm sure compete for a spot at camp, as he has NHL size, but it seems pretty unlikely that either he or Shinkaruk are ready to play in the NHL this year and possibly not even next.

I think in terms of the picks the Canucks made this was actually a really good draft, but the lacklustre value they got in the trade and the baffling use they made of the pick really casts a pall on everything.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I'll add one more thing...

Schneider was one of Vancouver's most valuable assets. Obviously they have the Sedins and Kesler. Some would list Burrows next, or maybe Hamhuis/Edler/Bieksa, whatever your preference.

But it would be hard to argue that Schneider would be any worse than 5th or 6th: potential #1, potential all-star goalie on a decent contract.

Horvat is a solid prospect and I would have loved to have him join the Flames fold. But there is no way in hell that the Canucks got better from that trade. Horvat could be contributing to the team in a couple years as a 3rd line C (something they need). But the Nucks window is now and they had to give away one of their best players - just entering his prime - for a pick.

To call that anything other than a failure is a stretch IMO.

The Canucks didn't get worse as Luongo is the better goalie so short term they don't lose anything in net and if this allows them to keep or add skaters due to the cap then they could be better short term.

There is an issue if Luongo decides he doesn't want to play but I think that likely gets resolved as Luongo doesn't really have much of a choice.

Perhaps 3-4 years from now when Luongo is retired/old the Canucks would prefer to have a 30 year old Schneider but it isn't like he was some 22 year old stud. He was a 27 okay goalie who if he has a great season may make an all-star team but is likely more of a 15-20 goalie in the league. He looked okay at times with a top team in front of him but let in some brutal goals and seemed to not make the big saves when needed. He is lucky everyone focused so much on Luongo so they ignored his iffy play at times.

We will have to wait to see how Horvat turns out but tough to say that its a failure when the Canucks improve their goaltending and go from a disasterous two headed monster to a clear #1 guy and add a top 10 pick.

[Table 5]

I do think the move makes the Canucks current team slightly worse, and is not good news for fans who still think they have a shot at the Cup with the current squad.

The thing is, they probably don't. They've been compared to being "where the Flames were 5 years ago", and I think that's fair. However, the Canucks did do something the Flames never did when they began their slide: turn an existing veteran asset into a prospect for the next generation. I'm not sure they got full value, and it could be argued that a guy like Schneider would still be able to play for that next generation of course (27 is fairly young for a goalie), but at least the guy is not going to be wasted playing for a downward trending team for the next few years.

[868904]

I bet Horvat plays for them this year. They have a need for a quality centre and he'll be nicely insulated with a veteran team. I'm thinking he could have a very good season for them.

It wouldn't shock me if Shinkaruk's made tHe team too. Canucks were too old and need some youthful energy, this is the perfect situation for these two. I could see Shinkaruk putting up lots of points and challenging for the Calder too if put on a line with the Sedins or Kesler. Long term though, Horvat will be the much better player and I could see Shinkaruk having a good start to his pro career but fading later and being dumped for not much, like most one dimensional players are.

Wish the Flames saw this years ago instead of continuing to sign washed up vets. You need young players to succeed in today's NHL.

[Enoch Root]

I can't even imagine how awesome it would be if the Nucks slotted Shinkaruk onto the Sedins' line this fall!! (will not happen, unfortunately)

[Vinny01]

I think Horvat will be ready to be the Nucks #2 C once Sedin calls it quits and it was a good trade for them. Hunter will be like Rob Schremp or will be a 30 goal scorer. Vancouver fans have to be pleased with getting 2 high profile prospects yesterday.

The team traded one of their only young assets to do it and still have a 34 year old starting goalie, a first line on players 32-33 and the rest of the roster is aging as well. IfmEdler goes I suspect they will target players in the 22-23 range

[JayP]

Originally Posted by 868904

I bet Horvat plays for them this year. They have a need for a quality centre and he'll be nicely insulated with a veteran team. I'm thinking he could have a very good season for them.

It wouldn't shock me if Shinkaruk's made tHe team too. Canucks were too old and need some youthful energy, this is the perfect situation for these two. I could see Shinkaruk putting up lots of points and challenging for the Calder too if put on a line with the Sedins or Kesler. Long term though, Horvat will be the much better player and I could see Shinkaruk having a good start to his pro career but fading later and being dumped for not much, like most one dimensional players are.

Wish the Flames saw this years ago instead of continuing to sign washed up vets. You need young players to succeed in today's NHL.

I doubt Horvat plays for them this year. They have a veteran team, but with the situations they give to the Sedins there isn't much room for sheltered minutes for a rookie at centre. Unless they want the Sedins to start taking on tougher match-ups and a lot more shifts starting in the defensive zone (which is very possible with another coach), they'll keep Horvat in the minors. A move like that isn't going to do them any favors in the short-term, especially with the way the Sedin's numbers have dropped the past couple years.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JayP

I doubt Horvat plays for them this year. They have a veteran team, but with the situations they give to the Sedins there isn't much room for sheltered minutes for a rookie at centre. Unless they want the Sedins to start taking on tougher match-ups and a lot more shifts starting in the defensive zone (which is very possible with another coach), they'll keep Horvat in the minors. A move like that isn't going to do them any favors in the short-term, especially with the way the Sedin's numbers have dropped the past couple years.

Torts has said unequivocally sedins will be killing penalties and playing more even matchups.

I think, like having Iginla on the PK, it will be good for their game.

It would surprise me if Horvat isn't pencilled into their lineup. I think part of the reason for drafting him vs. say any of the others that went 10-14 is that ability to be somewhat reliable as an NHLer as soon as possible.

Canucks are desperate for highly effective ELC contracts to keep competitive. After getting a taste of Schroeder and Kassian last year, I think they are pretty desperate to find a guy who could contribute solid minutes for them in a depth role.

We'll have to see what happens with the rest of their contracts though.

[Tinordi]

Good trade for Vancouver. I question the people who question the return, goalies just do not have alot of value on the trade market. This would be about as good as you could get. My only question is Horvat vs Nichushkin. Anyway Vancouver did the right thing in their choice between Schneider and Luongo, the one with value was shipped and now they have a very nice prospect out of it.

[albertGQ]

Originally Posted by JayP

I doubt Horvat plays for them this year. They have a veteran team, but with the situations they give to the Sedins there isn't much room for sheltered minutes for a rookie at centre. Unless they want the Sedins to start taking on tougher match-ups and a lot more shifts starting in the defensive zone (which is very possible with another coach), they'll keep Horvat in the minors. A move like that isn't going to do them any favors in the short-term, especially with the way the Sedin's numbers have dropped the past couple years.

Horvat can't play in the minors

It's either OHL or NHL for him