Trudeau: “Canada isn’t doing well right now because it’s Albertans who control...

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

Are there any other nationally shared benefits from resources? I don't really know - honest question.

If not, why is oil the special case?

All natural resources are treated the same way by the fiscal capacity formula used to calculate equalization payments and contributions:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Equalization payments are based on a formula that calculates the difference between the per capita revenue yield that a particular province would obtain using average tax rates and the national average per capita revenue yield at average tax rates. The current formula considers five major revenue sources (see below). The objective of the program is to ensure that all provinces have access to per capita revenues equal to the potential average of all ten provinces. The formula is based solely on revenues and does not consider the cost of providing services or the expenditure need of the provinces.
...
The fiscal capacity of the provinces is determined by measuring their revenue from five general sources. Those revenue categories are:

Personal income taxes
Business income taxes
Consumption taxes
Up to 50 percent of natural resource revenue (see below)
Property taxes and miscellaneous

Source: Wikipedia (because its so darned convenient!)

I would also note that the equalization program has been in place for over 60 years now, and in fact Alberta was an equalization recipient from 1957 to 1965.

I would further note that in 1982, Alberta was removed from the "national standard" calculation based on the argument that its resource wealth made it an outlier (the maritime provinces were also removed because they were seen as outliers). The net effect of this has been to significantly lower the "national standard" and to significantly lower the equalization contributions of the "have" provinces like Alberta and Ontario (until recently) and the equalization payments to the "have not" provinces.

So, clearly, the equalization program has all of the hallmarks of a Quebec/Liberal-engineered plot to steal Albertans' hard-earned petro-dollars (as some here have suggested.)

If anyone is interested in the basic characteristics of the equalization program, I highly recommend a short article by the Western Centre for Economic Research (based at the University of Alberta's School of Business) entitled "Alberta and Equalization: Separating Fact from Fiction".

[SeoulFire]

Interesting stuff. Now perhaps why oil has been the only resource subject to special legislation which only purpose was to transfer wealth from west to east (a long-standing theme of the federal government).

[Tinordi]

Refreshing to see someone who understands what equalization is.

There are lots of good arguments on how equalization is actually more economically efficient I'm the long run as well.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Refreshing to see someone who understands what equalization is.

There are lots of good arguments on how equalization is actually more economically efficient I'm the long run as well.

There is a difference between understanding and not agreeing with them. Never have and probably never will believe in propping up the unsustainable and taking away any real incentive to improve or develop. There are also a number of good arguments/criticisms on why they do not work and are not efficient....

Nor have I ever believed in the ability of the federal government to construct any policies that are for the benefit of Canadians as a whole and not just the regions key to getting elected. The west always has and always will be neglected, ignored, or screwed as the voter strength is just not sufficient for the fed parties to care.

[MarchHare]

There is a difference between understanding and not agreeing with them. Never have and probably never will believe in propping up the unsustainable and taking away any real incentive to improve or develop. There are also a number of good arguments/criticisms on why they do not work and are not efficient....

So what would you tell the citizens of poor provinces like PEI, New Brunswick, Manitoba, etc.? "Sorry, you can't have health care and education on par with the rest of the country. Enjoy your status as second-class citizens. You people should have just moved to a rich province like Alberta."

The west always has and always will be neglected, ignored, or screwed as the voter strength is just not sufficient for the fed parties to care.

If by "The west" you mean "just Alberta". Manitoba, Saskatchewan and BC have all received generous amounts of equalization payments over the years. Heck, even Alberta received equalization at one point. Until recently, only Ontario had never received equalization, yet I've never heard anyone from that province complaining about the program like many Albertans do.

[V]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Further, its a bit rich for Albertans to lecture Quebec about "fiscal responsibility" when your (well, our) provincial government spends more per capita than any other provincial government.

Well, this just isn't true, period, and I'm pretty sure you know that. Alberta has been middle of the road to upper tier, although they've averaged about 4th since 2000. Nothing outlandish. Considering they have the highest provincial GDP, I'd say it's pretty impressive that they've been able to avoid anywhere near the top spot.

I find it odd that you cherrypick your information. You don't need to, your points are usually valid without it.

http://parklandinstitute.ca/download...ingTheMyth.pdf

http://taxpayer.com/sites/default/fi...nf%20Adj_0.pdf

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by V

Well, this just isn't true, period, and I'm pretty sure you know that. Alberta has been middle of the road to upper tier, although they've averaged about 4th since 2000. Nothing outlandish. Considering they have the highest provincial GDP, I'd say it's pretty impressive that they've been able to avoid anywhere near the top spot.

I find it odd that you cherrypick your information. You don't need to, your points are usually valid without it.

http://parklandinstitute.ca/download...ingTheMyth.pdf

http://taxpayer.com/sites/default/fi...nf%20Adj_0.pdf

So he's basically right according to the 2nd link, with the exception of NFLD. In 09-10 Alberta spent the 2nd most per capita behind Newfoundland, and 35% more than Quebec, who spent the least money per person in the country.

[moon]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

So what would you tell the citizens of poor provinces like PEI, New Brunswick, Manitoba, etc.? "Sorry, you can't have health care and education on par with the rest of the country. Enjoy your status as second-class citizens. You people should have just moved to a rich province like Alberta."

Yep.

[V]

Originally Posted by opendoor

So he's basically right according to the 2nd link, with the exception of NFLD. In 09-10 Alberta spent the 2nd most per capita behind Newfoundland, and 35% more than Quebec, who spent the least money per person in the country.

??

They were fourth in 09-10, behind NFLD, MB and PEI. Out of 10 provinces. Like I said, they're usually closer to 4th in the province than first.

The point that Quebec's spending isn't that bad is a warranted point, and an important point to bring up whenever people here complain about the bloated Quebec social program budget, but the pot shot at Alberta claiming they are the worst spenders isn't warranted, and for how educated the poster is on the situation, I have a hard time believing it was an honest mistake.

[OffsideSpecialist]

I'd say right now Quebec's finances likely aren't as bad as Ontario's. They (Quebec) are much higher taxed, but apparently they just passed a rather stringent budget, though I don't know the details.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

So what would you tell the citizens of poor provinces like PEI, New Brunswick, Manitoba, etc.? "Sorry, you can't have health care and education on par with the rest of the country. Enjoy your status as second-class citizens. You people should have just moved to a rich province like Alberta."
.

Sorta yea. I'd probably add that they are lucky to live in a country where all they got to do is move to a different part of it to find work very easily.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by moon

Yep.

It's attitudes like this that make me almost ALMOST hope that the US becomes energy self sufficient and you don't get your northern gateway or keystone pipeline. Let the #######s out east freeze eh? I'd love to see Alberta with the shoe on the other foot with comments like that.

[OffsideSpecialist]

It seems obvious to me that everybody in the country should be able to have the same quality of public services, regardless of where they live. I don't think that myself, or anyone else, should be entitled to be better off than others in that regard because I was shot out of a vagina in a luckier arbitrarily drawn box than another person within the country.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

It's attitudes like this that make me almost ALMOST hope that the US becomes energy self sufficient and you don't get your northern gateway or keystone pipeline. Let the #######s out east freeze eh? I'd love to see Alberta with the shoe on the other foot with comments like that.

He didn't say that and you don't understand the issue.

The issue is that artificially propping up a region or economy almost never works in the long run. You need to encourage movement. Or you get a region that is very short labour and others that have large unemployment with a entitled and sometimes lazy workforce

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

He didn't say that and you don't understand the issue.

The issue is that artificially propping up a region or economy almost never works in the long run. You need to encourage movement. Or you get a region that is very short labour and others that have large unemployment with a entitled and sometimes lazy workforce

Sorry, guess I misunderstood the whole you're a second class citizen, good luck with the health care part. No, upon further review I understand the post and his response to said post.

[Skootenbeeten]

Why do we hope the NDP "die off"?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

It's attitudes like this that make me almost ALMOST hope that the US becomes energy self sufficient and you don't get your northern gateway or keystone pipeline. Let the #######s out east freeze eh? I'd love to see Alberta with the shoe on the other foot with comments like that.

Who said let them freeze?

Plenty of people in this country and others get by without the government giving them everything.

I would probably how about working towards solutions to provide those things that you want and looking at areas to cut spending on things that are less important.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by moon

Who said let them freeze?

Plenty of people in this country and others get by without the government giving them everything.

I would probably how about working towards solutions to provide those things that you want and looking at areas to cut spending on things that are less important.

Let the ######'s freeze in the dark is from the NEP days, which your attitude of indifference was coming close to. You're right the average Canadian does get by without the government giving them everything. What's your point? Ah let me guess, you're a healthy male with a good job, house family and what not, what happens if you all of a sudden get stricken with a terminal disease? Maybe you'd want the government to help you out with your hospital bills then. Get layed off in a depressed job market? Maybe you'd want some help from the government til you got on your feet.

I dunno guess I'm one of the few who wants to look out foe their fellow man. What if tomorrow oil went in the can and some who knows what mineral that only PEI possesses helped Alberta get equilization payments? We're one country and we should look out for each other.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

What's your point? Ah let me guess, you're a healthy male with a good job, house family and what not, what happens if you all of a sudden get stricken with a terminal disease? Maybe you'd want the government to help you out with your hospital bills then. Get layed off in a depressed job market? Maybe you'd want some help from the government til you got on your feet.

If i got stricked with a disease and needed medical treatment and there was no government I would cover it myself or have a plan in place to cover those expenses.

If I got laid off I would find another job and not want help from the government "til I got on my feet." I would use savings or have my wife work if need be.

I dunno guess I'm one of the few who wants to look out foe their fellow man. What if tomorrow oil went in the can and some who knows what mineral that only PEI possesses helped Alberta get equilization payments? We're one country and we should look out for each other.

Well then I might move to PEI to work if they had the jobs. I have worked in plenty of places other than Alberta it wouldn't be a big issue.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Let the ######'s freeze in the dark is from the NEP days, which your attitude of indifference was coming close to. You're right the average Canadian does get by without the government giving them everything. What's your point? Ah let me guess, you're a healthy male with a good job, house family and what not, what happens if you all of a sudden get stricken with a terminal disease? Maybe you'd want the government to help you out with your hospital bills then. Get layed off in a depressed job market? Maybe you'd want some help from the government til you got on your feet.

I dunno guess I'm one of the few who wants to look out foe their fellow man. What if tomorrow oil went in the can and some who knows what mineral that only PEI possesses helped Alberta get equilization payments? We're one country and we should look out for each other.

Actually I think it might be something that Ralph Klein said.