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Old 03-07-2013, 09:04 AM   #181
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Bouwmeester is tied for 21st in league scoring among defensemen with games in hand on many of the guys ahead of him.

In terms of points per game average, he is tied with Keith Yandle.

Don't look now, but Jay might just be worth his $6.68M salary.
-2, not quarterbacking the 1st unit PP, not really providing other intangibles (like physical presence, etc...) does not make him worth his $6.68M dollar salary.

I'm excited for the first time as a Flame he's putting up solid points, but he's still the 2nd highest paid Flame, and one of the highest paid D men in the league, he's not coming close yet to being the difference make he's paid to be. At that price Jay should be in the Norris discussion every season and a lock for team Canada in 2014, he is neither at the moment.

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Old 03-07-2013, 09:43 AM   #182
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-2, not quarterbacking the 1st unit PP, not really providing other intangibles (like physical presence, etc...) does not make him worth his $6.68M dollar salary.

I'm excited for the first time as a Flame he's putting up solid points, but he's still the 2nd highest paid Flame, and one of the highest paid D men in the league, he's not coming close yet to being the difference make he's paid to be. At that price Jay should be in the Norris discussion every season and a lock for team Canada in 2014, he is neither at the moment.
I agree. Chances are, Feaster is going to keep him because he's the team's best defenseman and then he's going to be re-signed and then struggle offensively again.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:11 AM   #183
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-2, not quarterbacking the 1st unit PP, not really providing other intangibles (like physical presence, etc...) does not make him worth his $6.68M dollar salary.

I'm excited for the first time as a Flame he's putting up solid points, but he's still the 2nd highest paid Flame, and one of the highest paid D men in the league, he's not coming close yet to being the difference make he's paid to be. At that price Jay should be in the Norris discussion every season and a lock for team Canada in 2014, he is neither at the moment.
First, I said he might be worth his salary.

Second, I wish I was computer savy enough to post the excel table I created comparing the stats of ten or so of the 2014 Team Canada hopefulls. Bouwmeesters stat line is right in the middle of the pack in all categories including points, power play points, time on ice, hits, blocked shots, and most importantly salary. The guys who get paid less than him are either on long term back diving contracts (e.g. Duncan Keith) or are on entry level deals and due for a big pay day (e.g. Kris Letang, Alex Pietrangelo)

Lastly, I haven't seen anything so far this season that makes me think Bouwmeester isn't capable of keeping up his level of play for the rest of this season and beyond, so long as he is playing in the right type of system, under the right coach.

Listen, I'm not stupid enough to say Bouwmeester is a difference maker or is a steal at $6.68M, especially after what amounts to a quarter season of play. Then again, I guess it depends on your definition of difference maker. He's not a difference maker in the Shea Weber/Drew Doughty mold (both of whom get paid more than him on back diving deals by the way). But what's more of a difference maker, Doughty plastering someone with a huge open ice hit, or Bouwmeester flying back the ice to get himself back into a play and break up a two on one?
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:14 AM   #184
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First, I said he might be worth his salary.

Second, I wish I was computer savy enough to post the excel table I created comparing the stats of ten or so of the 2014 Team Canada hopefulls. Bouwmeesters stat line is right in the middle of the pack in all categories including points, power play points, time on ice, hits, blocked shots, and most importantly salary. The guys who get paid less than him are either on long term back diving contracts (e.g. Duncan Keith) or are on entry level deals and due for a big pay day (e.g. Kris Letang, Alex Pietrangelo)

Lastly, I haven't seen anything so far this season that makes me think Bouwmeester isn't capable of keeping up his level of play for the rest of this season and beyond, so long as he is playing in the right type of system, under the right coach.

Listen, I'm not stupid enough to say Bouwmeester is a difference maker or is a steal at $6.68M, especially after what amounts to a quarter season of play. Then again, I guess it depends on your definition of difference maker. He's not a difference maker in the Shea Weber/Drew Doughty mold (both of whom get paid more than him on back diving deals by the way). But what's more of a difference maker, Doughty plastering someone with a huge open ice hit, or Bouwmeester flying back the ice to get himself back into a play and break up a two on one?
Jbo is earning his pay.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:19 AM   #185
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Bouwmeester this season is rounding into that player i expected him to be 3 years ago.
He is best used as a trailer on the rush.
Still has a noodle armed cork gun from the point.
Still lacks the physical element but has been at least making the attempt.

Playing allot smarter this season with confidence.
I will be curious to see how he manages when there are 15 games left in the season.
So far much much better year for Bouwmeester.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:43 AM   #186
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The JBo of the last 3 years is what you get when you try to put a square peg into a round hole. He simply was not put in a role that augmented his talents.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:46 AM   #187
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so we're blaming the coach again?
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:47 AM   #188
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so we're blaming the coach again?
Yup
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:49 AM   #189
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Then can we juts blame whoever hired the coach instead? Or the player for not listening to the coach?
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:51 AM   #190
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We should be blaming the coach I guess for lowering the expectations on a player, that when acquired a solid argument could be made that we were getting potentially the best D man in the league, to having the fan base do cartwheels because he is now eating a lot of minutes and jumping into the rush for his $6.7M.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:54 AM   #191
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Then can we juts blame whoever hired the coach instead? Or the player for not listening to the coach?
Who says he never listened?

I think he listened just fine but the style he was asked to play got the results you saw on the ice.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:56 AM   #192
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Kinda what I'm getting at, JayBow was brought in to be one of the best Dmen in the league. He played like crap for the first 3 years of his contract with us, he's playing well right now so he's the best and the 3 years before this doesn't mean anything and it was the coach's fault.

WIth a contact like JayBow's, he should be able to adapt to what the coach wants and would succeed at the role he's put in.

Buyers seem to have a short memory, now that he's playing well we should capitalize on it and benefit from him, but since the Flames are now above .500 hockey he should be nominated for the norris.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:23 PM   #193
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If you pro-rate his numbers he's on pace for 16 goals and 47 points which is exactly what Darryl Sutter envisioned when he traded for his rights. I will be curiously watching him down the stretch if the Flames are in the hunt at the end of the season to see if his play drops off or if he can rise to the occasion.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:59 PM   #194
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Kinda what I'm getting at, JayBow was brought in to be one of the best Dmen in the league. He played like crap for the first 3 years of his contract with us, he's playing well right now so he's the best and the 3 years before this doesn't mean anything and it was the coach's fault.

WIth a contact like JayBow's, he should be able to adapt to what the coach wants and would succeed at the role he's put in.

Buyers seem to have a short memory, now that he's playing well we should capitalize on it and benefit from him, but since the Flames are now above .500 hockey he should be nominated for the norris.
Then the argument is: should the player be able to adapt to the coaches system or should the coach adapt and use his players in ways they will be effective.

Fact of the matter was Bouw is not the physical shutdown d-man that Sutter wanted him to be. Nothing Bouw can do could change that, he just doesn't have that element to his game.

Bouw is the fluid skating d-man that needs to be able to jump into the rush, pinch, and close space using his speed. That is what he always has been.

A player doesn't go from being one of the best in the league at jumping into the rush in Florida, to terrible at it for 3 years, to being good at it again at his own doing. Somebody was telling him to hang back and be more responsible defensively to make sure we didn't give up an odd man rush.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:07 PM   #195
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Then the argument is: should the player be able to adapt to the coaches system or should the coach adapt and use his players in ways they will be effective.

Fact of the matter was Bouw is not the physical shutdown d-man that Sutter wanted him to be. Nothing Bouw can do could change that, he just doesn't have that element to his game.

Bouw is the fluid skating d-man that needs to be able to jump into the rush, pinch, and close space using his speed. That is what he always has been.

A player doesn't go from being one of the best in the league at jumping into the rush in Florida, to terrible at it for 3 years, to being good at it again at his own doing. Somebody was telling him to hang back and be more responsible defensively to make sure we didn't give up an odd man rush.

yup, he was babysitting Butler.
Also it's not just Bouwmeester or the defense. In Sutter system the forwards just were not active enough. Not skating, not activiating their sticks, not 'moving their feet'.

The Iginla goal last night where the puck was stolen in the Sharks zone? I lost count how many time Flames stole the puck last night with their sticks, with their feet, whatever. That never happens under Sutter.

In hockey today, it's fast 40 seconds shifts. It's not even about hitting anymore, although a big hit once in awhile is still nice. Your 5 guys must cover more of the entire ice surface faster than their 5 guys. Sutter's 5 guys never achieved this and were continually pinned in their own zone unable to make a stretch pass to relieve pressure.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:47 PM   #196
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I think Bouwmeester's offensive game is underrated and his defensive game is overated.

He's actually really good at joining the rush and supporting the forwards on offense. When he is joining the rush like he has been, he can be described as dynamic and I could see Team Canada having a use for him in that regard. There are very few defensemen in the world who can join a rush and get back on defense as fast and as fluidly as Bouwmeester.

As for his defence, I find that he needs to focus on positioning and rely more heavily on his long stick and using his smarts. He simply does not have the strength to compete physically against strong forwards and he should just stop. You don't have to be super strong or big to be effective in the defensive zone, look at Nik Lidstrom. Bouwmeester needs to watch tape of Lidstrom and learn how he defended. Having said that, Bouwmeester has had a lot of experience playing in all defensive situations and I would say he is at least an average defensive defenceman.

With all that said, I could see him being a 7th defenceman for Team Canada simply because he can play an offensive and defensive role. He has developed a versatility that not all of Canada top defensemen have and in the case of an injury to the top 6, he could fill in admirably for any one of them if need be.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:56 PM   #197
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If the Flames really want a #1 Center or another 1st round pick and top prospect. Bouwmeester is having a hell of a good season thus far.

D-man Rankings
Pts 22nd
Goals tied for 7th
Ice Time 15th.

If they decide in a year to resign him they have to get that contract more in line and no NTC. Resigning Bouwmeester should be loyalty enough. If his agent i think its Meehan demands a NTC once re-negotiation begins then trade him.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:16 PM   #198
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I think Bouwmeester's offensive game is underrated and his defensive game is overated.

He's actually really good at joining the rush and supporting the forwards on offense. When he is joining the rush like he has been, he can be described as dynamic and I could see Team Canada having a use for him in that regard. There are very few defensemen in the world who can join a rush and get back on defense as fast and as fluidly as Bouwmeester.

As for his defence, I find that he needs to focus on positioning and rely more heavily on his long stick and using his smarts. He simply does not have the strength to compete physically against strong forwards and he should just stop. You don't have to be super strong or big to be effective in the defensive zone, look at Nik Lidstrom. Bouwmeester needs to watch tape of Lidstrom and learn how he defended. Having said that, Bouwmeester has had a lot of experience playing in all defensive situations and I would say he is at least an average defensive defenceman.

With all that said, I could see him being a 7th defenceman for Team Canada simply because he can play an offensive and defensive role. He has developed a versatility that not all of Canada top defensemen have and in the case of an injury to the top 6, he could fill in admirably for any one of them if need be.
But last year I think his defense was very underrated. This was a guy going up against the best players in the league with Butler as his defense partner. It was a no-win situation for him but I think he did about as good on defense as you could expect without being a true franchise defenseman. Others, obviously, heavily disagree with me on that.

Now that he's in an offensive system his defense has taken a hit, which isn't exactly surprising. I think he's a player that could be a defensive rock on a defensive team if asked to play that role, or an offensive catalyst on an offensive team if asked to play that role. And that's probably because of his speed. His problem I feel is finding a balance and being able to play in it. He's probably as close to finding it as he has been in the last 5 years though.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:16 PM   #199
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Yeah, he's much better than just average on defense.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:19 AM   #200
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And as the Flames get within a playoff spot and need their best highest paid defenseman to step up and lead.......
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