Bicyclists suck!

[Locke]

Originally Posted by pylon

Okay, my much anticipated response.... never knew anyone actually gave a crap about my opinion...lol

Originally I was gonna type out a big FU response, however that wouldn't have been productive.

Don't forget, I do drive cars as well, and motorcycles, so it is not like I cannot see it from both sides. A lot of Locke's points I agree with, some, I do not. I was simply stating how I ride, and I know some of my etiquette isn't perfect.

I think it is an ego thing to be honest. A ton of motorists get all peeved because they get passed by the same cyclist in a rush hour situation a few times. Look at some of Pinners old posts, he admitted he would block them to impede their progress... why? Ego. Where as a bike enthusiast, I am usually checking out what kind of bike they are riding, but a lot of drivers are all rage mad because my $1600 ten speed, is giving them the perception that I am getting there quicker than you $45000, 450 HP Mustang. In tight traffic in the core, maybe.. probably, but trust me, after it is all said and done, the car will beat the cyclists once you get out of congestion. I am not racing the cars, but a lot of drivers, and admittedly cyclists, are racing.

I will leave with this. Locke, It is obvious by your post you know very little about cycling. Not a slight, simply an observation. Why don't you do this. Why don't you, accompany me, through the downtown core, on a weekday say at...7:30 am, and see if your opinion is any different. See the hell that cyclists have to deal with from the other side. See how comfortable you feel riding in a bike lane, that drivers are cutting into, see if you will really sit in traffic at the head of the line at a light with a guy waiting to turn right on your back wheel, or if you take the curb instead. I have a pile of bikes, I would be happy to lend you one for the experiment.

Originally Posted by pylon

You totally missed the point as per usual. $1600 is totally poor ass for a real road bike. The real serious dudes will have wheels or groupsets worth more than $1600. It is not an attempt to puff my chest. I could have said "On my $232.56 bike, passing his $3500 Dodge Neon." I was just using the facts in front of me with what I know I paid, and what I would estimate the cost of what Locke drives.

The point I was trying to make was a relative cost thing. A lot of people have ego issues with being passed in the big expensive SUV by either a skateboard, another car or a bike. Pure ego.
And it can create a ton of conflict in a dense traffic situation, when you pass the same guy multiple times due to stop and go traffic. 90% of the conflicts I seem to have had, are with guys driving big trucks or SUVs.

Where have I said drivers are jealous, show me one spot. I have stated drivers get mad, which is an entirely different emotion altogether.

Also what is with the personal attacks going on in this thread? I get that you guys hate frikkin cyclists. But the vast majority of the chirping is being done by people that have probably never once in their life, actually commuted on one, and have no clue what they are talking about, let alone ridden one more than a few hundred kms in their entire life. That is an average week for me between commuting, and just excersise.

All I have been trying to point out, is until you actually are in the position of a cyclist, during a rush hour commute, you really have no idea what it is like in the position of the cyclist.

And lets clear one thing up here. I am not running lights at controlled intersections in downtown Calgary at 4:00 pm, That would be suicide. And as much as some of you would love me to become a road stain, I am not that stupid. If there is a light, I stop, unless it is late at night, and I am the only guy in site, or in the middle of nowhere and hit a 4 way. All you holier than thou guys can claim you would sit and wait... but 99% of cyclists don't, and likely neither would you.

I want to clear one thing up, I posted what I drive not as a measurement of ego or cost, but rather in your initial post you mentioned the hassles involved in slowing down or coming to complete stops because of gearing issues and the fact that your feet are clipped into your pedals.

I was merely pointing out that I drive something that isnt the easiest daily driver in the world either, but I still have to obey traffic laws with it or I'm endangering the other people around me.

Whether that cyclist gets home faster than me or whatever really doesnt bother me, I'm not Peter from 'Office Space' raging that the old man with the walker is going faster than me. Now, if the old man with the walker is trying to jaywalk across Deerfoot, then we've got a problem.

Other things like the biker going all the way to front of the line at a light is insane. Now all these vehicles have to constantly pass a slow moving cyclist. Is he doing that for his own safety? Cant possibly be, because by making cars pass him over and over and over again hes simply just upping the odds of a potential accident and making up his own rules again.

For me its not an ego, cost or jealousy thing, the cyclist is just trying to get to work, just like the rest of us. Its the idea that the cyclist's commute to work is more important than mine and thus he should be allowed to do whatever he damned well pleases, all in the name of safety mind you, to get there while the rest of us are expected to preserve his safety at all costs while having no idea what the cyclist is going to do next.

As for your challenge, I dont work downtown and I dont particularly enjoy biking so I dont think so.

And I'll reiterate, the ultimate problem with cyclists is a lack of respect for the rules of the road, and the lack of a definitive set of rules that they must adhere to. Switching between pedestrian and motorist on a whim while at speed and expecting everyone around you to just deal with it is the problem. They are inconsistent, unpredictable and inconsiderate of others on the road, we might as well have fast moving hand grenades running around with a pin that could fall out at any second.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by Locke

I want to clear one thing up, I posted what I drive not as a measurement of ego or cost, but rather in your initial post you mentioned the hassles involved in slowing down or coming to complete stops because of gearing issues and the fact that your feet are clipped into your pedals.

I was merely pointing out that I drive something that isnt the easiest daily driver in the world either, but I still have to obey traffic laws with it or I'm endangering the other people around me.

Whether that cyclist gets home faster than me or whatever really doesnt bother me, I'm not Peter from 'Office Space' raging that the old man with the walker is going faster than me. Now, if the old man with the walker is trying to jaywalk across Deerfoot, then we've got a problem.

Other things like the biker going all the way to front of the line at a light is insane. Now all these vehicles have to constantly pass a slow moving cyclist. Is he doing that for his own safety? Cant possibly be, because by making cars pass him over and over and over again hes simply just upping the odds of a potential accident and making up his own rules again.

For me its not an ego, cost or jealousy thing, the cyclist is just trying to get to work, just like the rest of us. Its the idea that the cyclist's commute to work is more important than mine and thus he should be allowed to do whatever he damned well pleases, all in the name of safety mind you, to get there while the rest of us are expected to preserve his safety at all costs while having no idea what the cyclist is going to do next.

As for your challenge, I dont work downtown and I dont particularly enjoy biking so I dont think so.

And I'll reiterate, the ultimate problem with cyclists is a lack of respect for the rules of the road, and the lack of a definitive set of rules that they must adhere to. Switching between pedestrian and motorist on a whim while at speed and expecting everyone around you to just deal with it is the problem. They are inconsistent, unpredictable and inconsiderate of others on the road, we might as well have fast moving hand grenades running around with a pin that could fall out at any second.

The bolded parts of your comment are exactly what I have been trying to say.

I drive on Bowness road often. It is not a very wide road so why would a person a bike risk it? Especially when there is a designated bike route through the community. I can only assume the person on the bike takes Bowness Road because it is faster for them to get home. But then they run the red lights and the stop signs and bitch about the drivers breaking the rules. LOL

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Who is doing this?

Originally Posted by Ark2

Haven't noticed this at all actually.

Originally Posted by pylon

I don't think he means in this thread. A good example is post # 1 of the gear grinder thread.

Exactly, no one specifically in this thread is talking about how it's safer to speed, but there does seem to be a pretty strong correlation between the people complaining about cyclists not following the rules in this thread, and then arguing pretty adamantly in other threads about how their breaking of the rules makes them safer, and thus is justified.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by puckluck

Lol I missed the point? Maybe make your point more clearer then. What's the point of telling us how much your bike costs and how much Lockes car costs and mentioning ego in the same sentence if it has nothing to do with your argument? For the record I really don't have a huge problem with cyclists as I don't work downtown and rarely see them on my commute to work which is mostly on the highways, I just find your arrogance pretty hilarious. And honestly it sounds like you have the biggest ego out of everyone which isn't necessarily a bad thing but I think you have to start looking into the mirror and realize not everyone thinks like you on the road. I couldn't care less about the relative cost thing between cyclists and vehicles and whoever does has ego issues like you say but I don't think 99.9999 percent of people care about being passed in a big expensive suv or truck or any car for that matter. The problem lies with the cyclists who are convenient pedestrians and vehicles of the road. City of Calgary does need more bike lanes, but until they do I think cyclists should have to obey the rules of the road.

Okay, so you're saying that cyclists should follow the rules of the road because it annoys you when they break them for the sake of conveneince.

How then do you justify your own stance that people who do 100km in the left lane of deerfoot grind your gears as they prevent you from going faster (read: "Breaking the rules for the sake of convenience")?

Do you not understand how hypocritcal that is?

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Okay, so you're saying that cyclists should follow the rules of the road because it annoys you when they break them for the sake of conveneince.

How then do you justify your own stance that people who do 100km in the left lane of deerfoot grind your gears as they prevent you from going faster (read: "Breaking the rules for the sake of convenience")?

Do you not understand how hypocritcal that is?

Might sound hypocritical but he is right on both accounts.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

Might sound hypocritical but he is right on both accounts.

Ahh, I see, the old "The rules apply to everyone but me stance".
Gotcha!

I just started riding to work, and I often speed (I'm a rule breaker on both sides of the road). I can tell you that more often than not when I'm breaking the rules on my bike, it's to get out of the way of cars (hence actually making me safer). I'll often scoot to the front of a line so I can get out of a lane blocked by a stopped bus and into an unsued curbs side lane (do this every day on N bound 1st street between 9th and 8th Ave). Yeah, I scotted up the center line at a red light, so I've broken the rules, but I've made myself safer, and sped up traffic behind me. I can guarantee that the people bitching about how I broke the law would also be the first people to lose their mind if I stayed in the left lane like I'm supposed to until the light turned green, and I slowly made my way past/around the bus.

When I'm speeding in my truck, it's becasue I'm impatient not based on some fictional justification that speeding somehow makes me safer.

Yeah, we all ignore some of the rules of the road, and it looks to me like the folks who are most adamant that the rules don't apply to them when they drive, are also the ones complaining the loudest about how cyclists do the exact same thing.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Ahh, I see, the old "The rules apply to everyone but me stance".
Gotcha!

Nope. The examples are completely different scenerios.

People driving 'slow' in the passing lane cause traffic congestion and therefore more potential traffic accidents.

Bicyclist blowing through stop signs cause traffic confusion and therefore more potential traffic accidents.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

Nope. The examples are completely different scenerios.

People driving 'slow' in the passing lane cause traffic congestion and therefore more potential traffic accidents.

Bicyclist blowing through stop signs cause traffic confusion and therefore more potential traffic accidents.

Nope the examples are exactly the same.

The reason that person doing 100 is a nuisance is because people like puckluck have decided that they want to break the rules for the sake of conveneince and go over the speed limit.

The reason that stop sign is a nuisance is because people on bikes have decided that they want to break the rules for the sake of conveneince and not stop.

Heck, even without that other driver in the left lane, Puckluck has decided that the rules don't apply to her (i'm pretty sure she's a chick, my appologies if I'm wrong, I'm not trying to be a jerk on that), and that she should be able to break them to get to where she's going sooner.
That is the exact reasoning behind a cyclist going through a stop sign.

Saying it's okay for me to speed (and in fact to get really annoyed by those who don't) while simultaneously getting angry at cyclists who are making very similar decisions based on the exact same motivation is so mindly blowingly hypocritical it's laughable.

[habernac]

As a few have stated already, the infrastructure in this city sucks for bikes. Just came back from the southwestern US, very jealous of all the bike lanes I see down there.

If you're a cyclist and run stop signs when other traffic is there, you're an idiot. If you're a motorist that complains about bikes running stop signs when there's no traffic around, you're also an idiot.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Nope the examples are exactly the same.

The reason that person doing 100 is a nuisance is because people like puckluck have decided that they want to break the rules for the sake of conveneince and go over the speed limit.

The reason that stop sign is a nuisance is because people on bikes have decided that they want to break the rules for the sake of conveneince and not stop.

Heck, even without that other driver in the left lane, Puckluck has decided that the rules don't apply to her (i'm pretty sure she's a chick, my appologies if I'm wrong, I'm not trying to be a jerk on that), and that she should be able to break them to get to where she's going sooner.
That is the exact reasoning behind a cyclist going through a stop sign.

Saying it's okay for me to speed (and in fact to get really annoyed by those who don't) while simultaneously getting angry at cyclists who are making very similar decisions based on the exact same motivation is so mindly blowingly hypocritical it's laughable.

I guess we can agree that we have different opinions on the scenerios.

[Boblobla]

Can we all just agree that bike couriers are #######s and be done with it?

[MarchHare]

If you're a motorist that complains about bikes running stop signs when there's no traffic around, you're also an idiot.

I'm not a motorist, but I guess I'm an idiot because I consider traffic laws to apply at all times, not just when the roads are busy. Stop signs don't magically turn into yield signs if there aren't other vehicles around.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

Can we all just agree that bike couriers are #######s and be done with it?

yup, like everything else there's a big spectrum when it comes to cyclists.
Bike couriers are equivalent of ######ed 16 year old street racers.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

I guess we can agree that we have different opinions on the scenerios.

I suppose we do, but I'd like to understand why you think they are different?

I've stated that I'll break the rules on either vehicle, so I'm not being a hypocrite. I don't try to say it's okay for me to break the rules on one vehicle, but not on the other, to me I'm being consistent with my application of the laws. I accept that occasionally people will break them as I do, and I understand that their motivations are the same as mine, and hence by my own logic justifiable.

What I'm looking for is an explination as to why you and others, like puckluck, are not being consistent with how you view minor infractions by some on one mode of transportation, that you do the equivalent of for the same reasoning, the only difference being the vehicle?

I don't seen the infractions of most cyclists any different than the infractions of most motorists, so I'd like the hear your explination as to why you do.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by fotze

So since I speed in my car from time to time, I can break rules on my bike? No more 2 second stops for me.

That's now what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that I accept that people have the same motivations as me for breaking the same rules I do, so I don't get upset at them. What several people in this thread are showing (through their comments in this and other threads) is that they believe that they are justified in breaking minor rules, but that other should be held to a higher standard. I think that's silly.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by fotze

So since I speed in my car from time to time, I can break rules on my bike? No more 2 second stops for me.

No, I think the logic being proposed by some (not all) of the cyclists in this thread is more like this:

"Other people on the road are sometimes reckless and put my safety in danger, so the only appropriate course of action is for me to disregard traffic laws and make up my own set of rules 'for safety'".

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I suppose we do, but I'd like to understand why you think they are different?

I've stated that I'll break the rules on either vehicle, so I'm not being a hypocrite. I don't try to say it's okay for me to break the rules on one vehicle, but not on the other, to me I'm being consistent with my application of the laws. I accept that occasionally people will break them as I do, and I understand that their motivations are the same as mine, and hence by my own logic justifiable.

What I'm looking for is an explination as to why you and others, like puckluck, are not being consistent with how you view minor infractions by some on one mode of transportation, that you do the equivalent of for the same reasoning, the only difference being the vehicle?

I don't seen the infractions of most cyclists any different than the infractions of most motorists, so I'd like the hear your explination as to why you do.

I agree with you that we can't have it both ways. Break some laws and then have a big fit if somebody else breaks a law.

I just don't agree with your example. I believe that people driving in the passing lane at or below the speed limit leads to traffic congestion which is dangerous in its self.

I hate hate the idiots who will drive up somebody's butt if they are driving too slow in the passing lane. But for the safety of everybody they person needs to get out of the way. They need to pay attention and see that idiot coming up fast behind them.

I drive on Crowchild heading south from Crowfoot alot. The traffic flow is pretty good (except for rush hour). But when somebody is driving slow in the left lane it causes traffic congestion. Then those idiots behind them start driving dangerously. So, is the person who is driving slower in the left lane breaking the law? No, they are not. But they are causing a traffic problem.

It doesn't seem fair but the person needs to stop the behavoir that can cause a traffic problem. So get out of the left lane. Just like a cyclist needs to stay off of narrow roads that do not give them enough room to cycle. Narrow roads and they can't keep up to the traffice.

In both cases they are not breaking a law but their common sense is not understanding the situation.

[ken0042]

With respect to the arguement about people speeding; I think to be a closer analogy would be the person who wants to speed, so he passes people by driving in the left hand shoulder. To me that is a better comparison to what I see many cyclists doing with respect to creating their own rules.

And I use the term "many" cyclists; as I don't think it is most or all of them.

[4X4]

I used to drive down Parkdale Blvd daily, and the amount of times I witnessed some dickbag cyclist that would go blasting down the bike path, then hit the pedestrian signal and ride right across the street without waiting for cars to stop just blew my mind.
I know it's mean, but I secretly wanted to watch one of those a-holes get plastered.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by pylon

I think it is an ego thing to be honest. A ton of motorists get all peeved because they get passed by the same cyclist in a rush hour situation a few times. Look at some of Pinners old posts, he admitted he would block them to impede their progress... why? Ego. Where as a bike enthusiast, I am usually checking out what kind of bike they are riding, but a lot of drivers are all rage mad because my $1600 ten speed, is giving them the perception that I am getting there quicker than you $45000, 450 HP Mustang. In tight traffic in the core, maybe.. probably, but trust me, after it is all said and done, the car will beat the cyclists once you get out of congestion. I am not racing the cars, but a lot of drivers, and admittedly cyclists, are racing.

This has nothing to do with ego.

It has to do with people in vehicles all having to slow down to creep around the bike that is on the road, no big deal the first time. But then you hit a couple red lights and the guy come from the back again and the whole lot of vehicles have to slowly and carefully pass him again and again slowing down all the traffic.

While there is no real other solution since the city does not have enough bike lanes, it is still a frustrating experience for drivers. You just were slowed down in order to carefully pass the cyclist and then you hit the red light and you suddenly have to pass him all over again.