Worst team in the league - Are we "OK" with it?

[Ped]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Columbus got Staal instead of MAF, and won a cup,

You mean Carolina?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

There is always a lot of talk about how long rebuilds take and the risk of having unsuccessful rebuilds. I don't think retooling is any different, it's just rebuilding in a different way. It probably just maintains the status quo longer, but you have to spend more assets to do it and suffer a net loss in assets in the long run.

Re-tools typically mean bringing in younger NHLers and hoping they have another gear, rather than building strictly through the draft. The problem with that approach is you often just wind up with someone else’s mediocre 23-26 year olds, like Sharangovich, Bahl, Frost, and Farabee. It’s a high-floor, low-ceiling strategy.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Re-tools typically mean bringing in younger NHLers and hoping they have another gear, rather than building strictly through the draft. The problem with that approach is you often just wind up with someone else’s mediocre 23-26 year olds, like Sharangovich, Bahl, Frost, and Farabee. It’s a high-floor, low-ceiling strategy.

This should be one of the definitions of 'rebuild' in the Webster's Dictionary.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This is one thing I don't get about some posters. There's just no guarantee here. And sometimes it can hurt badly - see 2007 - Philly losing Kane and getting JVR. Of course, oddly enough, most teams who lose the lottery despite being in last did OK: Florida "settled" for Barkov after missing Mackinnon, Columbus got Staal instead of MAF, and won a cup, Pittsburgh got Malkin and not Ovie.

Funniest lottery loss was the Isles losing the right to draft Kovalchuk, then not taking Spezza 2OA. Instead they trade the 2OA plus Chara to Ottawa for Yashin. Milbury has to be the worst GM of all time.

Plus I remember Alexandre Daigle, who had Lindros-like hype, and Nail Yakupov, described as "can't miss".

I have no idea why you quoted me, but alright. What should the Flames do?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ped

You mean Carolina?

yes. Will correct.

[dino7c]

Oilers coming in hot despite an easy schedule with no top teams so far

[Jiri Hrdina]

I dont want them anywhere near the lottery
Stay away
A 15 or 16 finish will do fine

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Re-tools typically mean bringing in younger NHLers and hoping they have another gear, rather than building strictly through the draft. The problem with that approach is you often just wind up with someone else’s mediocre 23-26 year olds, like Sharangovich, Bahl, Frost, and Farabee. It’s a high-floor, low-ceiling strategy.

Does it have to be younger players? I consider the Tkachuk/Huberdeau trade, and the Kadi/Monahan switcharoo as retooling (albeit forced somewhat), but in both cases we went for older players.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Re-tools typically mean bringing in younger NHLers and hoping they have another gear, rather than building strictly through the draft. The problem with that approach is you often just wind up with someone else’s mediocre 23-26 year olds, like Sharangovich, Bahl, Frost, and Farabee. It’s a high-floor, low-ceiling strategy.

The good news for the Flames is they are pretty much in absolute full blown rebuild, burn it to the ground style. Most NHL teams still have players that they put on the ice, that is what those 4 players represent. If one was to try to extrapolate their value in terms of picks forgone to acquire them it would basically be a 2nd and two 3rds for all 4 combined. It is highly likely that they trade some combo of those players for more draft capital than what they cost. So the Flames are pretty clearly in the rebuild category and not the retooling category. But they did probably forgo the equivalent of a 2nd and two 3rds

But they did acquire on the clear rebuild side a 2024 1st, a 2023 3rd, a 2024 5th, a 2024 6th, a 2024 3rd, a 2026 1st, a 2021 2nd, a 2024 2nd, a 2026 3rd, a 2025 2nd, a 2025 1st, a 2023 3rd

So retool is -
1 2nd
2 3rds


Rebuild is -
3 1sts
3 2nds
4 3rds
1 4th
1 5th
1 6th


Ratio is pretty good, probably one of the strongest rebuild ratios vis-a-vis retool in any rebuild I can remember, with likely more picks and prospects to come this year.

[Caged Great]

Realistically this team is in the process of a full tear down. Which is frankly what the organization needs. They will need to move some additional veterans and they will need more spots for young players. Having the next batch in the AHL for the time being is a good thing as it will allow them the marinate properly much like Coronato did before coming up. Next year the flames should have 4-5 spots made up front in some fashion in order to move the current top prospects up. They are probably going to be near the bottom for 3 seasons. Getting a guy like McKenna is perfectly good but if their luck is not great and they get another good prospect instead, so be it. Just got to keep folding more good players into the talent pool as time goes on.

[NewFan]

When you have a genetional talent or at least have a superstars in your main areas you can retool properly. In Flames case there are nobody retool around so team is quietly rebuilding.

[Badgers Nose]

Calgary Flames have never finished last before.

They clearly are not trying to finish last.

Struggling to avoid last has not been kind to the Flames.

And frankly, these are not the 1980s Flames where a last place finish was inconceivable.

So, to answer the OP question; yes I am OK with the Flames finishing last.

[VilleN]

If we continue on this trajectory and end up being the worst team in the league (or close to it) and draft first overall. And then have similar results next year. I think the Flames will be in a very good position. We already have one of the best prospect pools in the league, we just lack talent at the top end. Inject a couple of young superstars and you have the makings of a perennial contender. Depth and youth- and we have a goalie. If you look at teams that struggle to rebuild, that is often a missing ingredient.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The good news for the Flames is they are pretty much in absolute full blown rebuild, burn it to the ground style. Most NHL teams still have players that they put on the ice, that is what those 4 players represent. If one was to try to extrapolate their value in terms of picks forgone to acquire them it would basically be a 2nd and two 3rds for all 4 combined. It is highly likely that they trade some combo of those players for more draft capital than what they cost. So the Flames are pretty clearly in the rebuild category and not the retooling category. But they did probably forgo the equivalent of a 2nd and two 3rds

But they did acquire on the clear rebuild side a 2024 1st, a 2023 3rd, a 2024 5th, a 2024 6th, a 2024 3rd, a 2026 1st, a 2021 2nd, a 2024 2nd, a 2026 3rd, a 2025 2nd, a 2025 1st, a 2023 3rd

So retool is -
1 2nd
2 3rds


Rebuild is -
3 1sts
3 2nds
4 3rds
1 4th
1 5th
1 6th


Ratio is pretty good, probably one of the strongest rebuild ratios vis-a-vis retool in any rebuild I can remember, with likely more picks and prospects to come this year.

The real problem with Calgary’s rebuild is the lack of high draft picks to get elite talent.

That may be changing this year and supplementing their existing prospects with some elite ones will go along way in improving their chances of becoming a contender.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The real problem with Calgary’s rebuild is the lack of high draft picks to get elite talent.

That may be changing this year and supplementing their existing prospects with some elite ones will go along way in improving their chances of becoming a contender.

That, and being pretty limited to tear it down. We are stuck with some of the veterans either because their contracts are untradeable or they have too much control over where they go. We really don't have any veteran players that we can convert into serious assets.

[Winsor_Pilates]

I'll be happy to be last; it would be an accomplishment in some odd way.
But I can't see it happening; they will improve a bit at some point.

Last year they played above expected and were a bubble team.
This year they're playing below expected.
I suspect they will end up in between those, which is where the roster is IMO. Something around a bottom 6-10 team.

[Flamesfan05]

If wolf continue to flounder, there is no limit to the bottom really

There is not enough talent to score a few steals

[boogerz]

If we look at current rebuilds in the league, the Sharks are in year five, the Ducks are in year six, the Hawks are in year five, and the Sabres are in a second decade. All of these teams are still 3-5 years away from being contenders. Spending one year as the worst team in the league is one thing, but doing a whole rebuild and spending a decade in the basement...Flames fans aren't ready for that. Even the Young Guns era that almost ended in franchise relocation wasn't as long as a rebuild...it only lasted seven seasons before the '04 cinderella run.

Except for the Hawks, the aforementioned teams can rebuild because they have relatively small fanbases that don't care, whereas we are rabid fans. The Flames' Dome attendance hasn't recovered to pre-Covid levels and is tracking for the fourth consecutive year of declining average attendance per game. Even the GDT threads and FAN 960 post-game show callers so far this season are more bipolar than normal. People will not be okay with watching rebuild-quality hockey for a decade. The players also won't be okay with it...the fiery veterans needed to bolster a roster (e.g. Kadri) don't want to play for bottom feeders.

Personally, I don't think a total rebuild is the way to go. For a Canadian team that needs to be able to compete each year in spite of being an undesirable FA destination, I like the Winnipeg model...draft well, hire decent/good coaches, play with a cohesive and consistent style and identity, and make good trades. They might not be favorites for the cup and they tend to underperform once the playoffs arrive, but at least they have a good probability of making deep runs every year.

Whether Murray Edwards is willing to invest in quality coaching and GMing is another question. Except for Sutter, he has never ever been willing to pay for a good and proven coach. Also, no shade at Conroy, but there is a difference between an okay-ish GM and the best in the league (e.g. Nill, Cheveldayoff, or Zito).

[FlamesAddiction]

I am actually pretty confident with the recent drafting the Flames have done (Reschny, Potter, Gridin, Basha, Misa, Parekh, Battaglia) and guys like Coronato and Wolf locked in, if we bottom out for 3 years and hopefully get 3 top 5 picks in that time (and dog willing, a 1st OA), we could be on the quicker end of a rebuild (say 5 years to get out of the funk and start progressing). At that point, if you have the blue chip guys coming along, it also gets easier to keep and attract free agents. You really just have to hope that the top 5 picks don't have any busts.

But that's the thing, it doesn't take just one year of bottoming out. Teams like Florida, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Tampa, Colorado, Carolina, and the Grease, had to do it a few times, so that seems to be normal.

[heep223]

Fully preparing to finish last and then draft 3rd OA