Israel declares war on Hamas

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I don't want to be glib, but it's the bit right after where you ended the quote, for some reason.


", a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes"


This was an attack on "a group of people", and also "particular persons for political purposes". So that's how I read it.

By that interpretation of “group of people” all war is terrorism and therefore discussion of terrorism is meaningless in this context.

I don’t believe that Hezboalh meets the intent of “group of people” definition. They are targets in a war which is why I prefer the 1999 proposed definition I linked as it identifies considerations for war.

I also think the “for political purposes” is inclusive to all 3 groups and not only to the last group.

So to be terrorism it needs to be intended, against civilians, a group of people or particular persons, AND needs to be for political purposes.

I’d argue that these attacks were for a military purpose not a political one but certainly your opinion that it’s political in nature is reasonable.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

the rules of war have always allowed for killing civilians, and mostly in an indiscriminate manner to be frank, you drop a bomb from 15,000 feet up onto a factory in Hanoi or Dresden you are going to kill thousands of civilians, that munitions base that blew up in Russia, I would bet money the workers in it and a few poor schmoes that live close by died as well

I'm not advocating it, just realize that once you go to war you kill a certain amount of civilians and legally that's ok

Morally? of course it's not ok, should Hamas and Hezbollah immediately surrender to prevent the deaths of civilians, I'm guessing you would disagree with that

So if some suicide bombers walk into a Tel Aviv mall tomorrow and blow up a load of civilians in your mind that's all fine and dandy as they're legitimate targets?

You thing the Provos, Argies, or Iraqis would be justified indiscriminately bombing UK shopping centres?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GGG

By that interpretation of “group of people” all war is terrorism and therefore discussion of terrorism is meaningless in this context.

I don’t believe that Hezboalh meets the intent of “group of people” definition. They are targets in a war which is why I prefer the 1999 proposed definition I linked as it identifies considerations for war.

I also think the “for political purposes” is inclusive to all 3 groups and not only to the last group.

So to be terrorism it needs to be intended, against civilians, a group of people or particular persons, AND needs to be for political purposes.

I’d argue that these attacks were for a military purpose not a political one but certainly your opinion that it’s political in nature is reasonable.

I read that statement as a series of ORs, not ANDs so perhaps that's the issue.

[OldDutch]

Its a targeted attack on a terrorist group, that happened to inflict civilian casualties, that caused terror amongst said terrorist groups, and innocent civilians, the same way the terrorist group targets their enemy.

That whole region is a circle. Its impossible to square anything as one side.

[afc wimbledon]

I didnt say it was okay to target civilians, I said it was ok to kill them assuming the target is a legitimate one, is a mall a legitimate target? obviously no, it has no military value, is a bridge or a train track? most times yes even though you will certainly kill civilians when it is hit

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I read that statement as a series of ORs, not ANDs so perhaps that's the issue.

With your interpretation how is any act of war not an act of terrorism?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GGG

With your interpretation how is any act of war not an act of terrorism?

Well that goes back to my other post:

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Did Lebanon go to war with Israel? Who declared it? This isn't war in any traditional sense.

Is Hezbollah at war with Israel? Ya, I think that's safe to say. Is Lebanon at war with Israel? Did Israel declare war on them, or Hezbollah?

[afc wimbledon]

you guys want a 'good guy' and a 'bad guy' and there isn't one, you want a 'clean' war and that has never existed but what you really want is a set of rules that equalizes the conflict and gives Hamas and Hezbollah a fighting chance, that aint ever going to happen, Israel will always be able to kill 100 muslims or more for every Israeli and they always will, how hard is that to understand? what does it matter if it is right or wrong? do I think Israel is a moral country defending itself? no but if you climb into a cage with a lion you are going to get eaten.

Let's talk about Oct 7th, unlike most here I didnt see it as any more 'wrong' or a crime than anything else Hamas had done, even the mass rape and killing of women and children is really par for the course in any war, Israeli troops have certainly raped as have Canadian (my father in law admitted as much in a drunken night when he talked about his time in the Calgary Tank Rgt in Italy)

No the thing that was appalling about Oct the 7th was it's rank nihilistic stupidity, everything that has happened since has been utterly predictable and all of it is on Hamas, it's what Hamas wanted in truth, Hamas wanted Israel to slaughter hundreds of thousands of Gazans because it keeps them in power and in money, they don't give a tinkers about Gaza or it's people, they are just canon fodder to keep the cause going

[afc wimbledon]

Bibi wants a war in Lebanon, a long bloody war that polarizes Israel and keeps him in power, depopulates much of the country south of Tyre, Lebanon will be thrown back into civil war, tens of thousands will die

All of this is Hamas's fault

[Language]

Hezbollah is going to pull Lebanon into an abyss that it will never be able to get out of. It’s a sad state of affairs for that country because if not for Hezbollah, I could have actually seen a successful peace treaty between Lebanon/Israel similar to Jordan.

It’s insane to think that Israel is even an agitator in this. There is no land dispute with Lebanon. There aren’t any groups of people in Lebanon aiming to conquer Israeli land (besides Hezbollah if given the chance?). There are no Israeli’s looking to conquer Lebanese land. There is no Palestinian issue with Lebanon. If Hezbollah stopped attacking Israel there would be peace on that border. Full stop. Hezbollah is simply a full-on Iranian proxy serving the interests of that evil regime and nothing else.

It’s wild that anyone is even making the argument that Israel committed a terrorist act against terrorists, or is escalating matters. None of this would even be happening if Hezbollah just stopped indiscriminately attacking Israel. Israel is not without its reasons for criticism, but the brain rot that has permeated when it comes to anything related to Israel is mind blowing. There are segments out there in western society literally feeling sorry for Hezbollah.

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[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well that goes back to my other post:


Is Hezbollah at war with Israel? Ya, I think that's safe to say. Is Lebanon at war with Israel? Did Israel declare war on them, or Hezbollah?

Uhmmm what do you call it when the two military’s of the elected governments lob rockets back and forth at each other?

Israel after this attack said they moved to a new phase of the war with Lebanon which suggests prior to the attacks they were at the old phase in the war.

Speaking to Israeli troops on Wednesday, Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said, “We are at the start of a new phase in the war — it requires courage, determination and perseverance.” He made no mention of the exploding devices but praised the work of Israel’s army and security agencies, saying “the results are very impressive.”

Associated press call it

https://apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war

How about Hezbolah

Well after Israel assassinated the

The goal of this battle is to prevent Israel from winning” and from “eliminating the Palestinian resistance,” Mr. Nasrallah added, drawing a separation between the war in Gaza and Hezbollah’s support for Hamas, on the one hand, and the group’s larger, longer-running conflict with Israel.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/16/w...on-israel.html

So I don’t know the argument for them not being at war. Perhaps not an all out war.

Does your comment mean that you recognize a war exception for terrorism?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I didnt say it was okay to target civilians, I said it was ok to kill them assuming the target is a legitimate one, is a mall a legitimate target? obviously no, it has no military value, is a bridge or a train track? most times yes even though you will certainly kill civilians when it is hit

You stated that

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

civilians are also legitimate targets in war and always have been

So by your criteria anything that contains civilians is a legitimate target. Schools. Hospitals. Malls.. Anything goes.
.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Language

Hezbollah is going to pull Lebanon into an abyss that it will never be able to get out of. It’s a sad state of affairs for that country because if not for Hezbollah, I could have actually seen a successful peace treaty between Lebanon/Israel similar to Jordan.

It’s insane to think that Israel is even an agitator in this. There is no land dispute with Lebanon. There aren’t any groups of people in Lebanon aiming to conquer Israeli land (besides Hezbollah if given the chance?). There are no Israeli’s looking to conquer Lebanese land. There is no Palestinian issue with Lebanon. If Hezbollah stopped attacking Israel there would be peace on that border. Full stop. Hezbollah is simply a full-on Iranian proxy serving the interests of that evil regime and nothing else.

It’s wild that anyone is even making the argument that Israel committed a terrorist act against terrorists, or is escalating matters. None of this would even be happening if Hezbollah just stopped indiscriminately attacking Israel. Israel is not without its reasons for criticism, but the brain rot that has permeated when it comes to anything related to Israel is mind blowing. There are segments out there in western society literally feeling sorry for Hezbollah.

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What do you find so difficult with engaging honestly with people’s positions here?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bagor

You stated that



So by your criteria anything that contains civilians is a legitimate target. Schools. Hospitals. Malls.. Anything goes.
.

It's not my criteria it's international law and there hasnt been a war in history that hasn't involved killing civilians, the parse is killing civilians as fine if it is the collateral effect of a legitimate target, legitimate targets have always included elements of civilian infrastructure essential to the military, all transportation, some factories, some administration

Hospitals schools and malls are not considered strategically vital and are off limits

But you know all of this already, you are fine with Israel being hit with rockets that are wholly indiscriminate and pretty much can only kill civilians by their nature (as am I ironically)