2024 Toronto Blue Jays Season Thread

[bluejays]

To me there's a slight problem with Vladdy from an expectation standpoint. The problem is the overall construction of the team the past couple years. Springer has had some back issues that tend to never go away. I'm not faulting management for that one, but it should be a caution to giving long term deals. Anyway, I digress. The problem with the roster is guys not being able to hit, and showed mediocre promise of doing so to begin with. Varsho and Kiermeier are positions which should be hitting. That's on management. IKF too at 3B, is on management. Turner I'm quite surprised isn't hitting. I didn't personally expect that. I thought he'd be average at least. 2nd, I'm not faulting them for giving Biggio a try because 2nd is a bonus position throughout the league for finding a hitter. Catcher I fully blame them for. They had an elite prospect in the wings and a lot of uncertainty about repeat performance for Jansen and Kirk. They gambled hard and lost painfully. That's fully on them. So by my calculation there are 4 positions (CF, LF, 3B and C) that should be providing some production on most teams, that pretty much had no chance of doing so coming into this season, and are living up to those expectations in spectacularly bad fashion. It's purely on the GM. I'd be much more inclined to get rid of fraud Atkins than the coaching staff (aside from the batting coach Martinez). It was obvious before the season started, and it's stamped in red now. It's simply a bad roster construction philosophy that got us here. That's purely on the GM who makes that strategic decision.

[KelVarnsen]

Acuna is out for season. Biggio and Springer to the Braves?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by bluejays

To me there's a slight problem with Vladdy from an expectation standpoint. The problem is the overall construction of the team the past couple years. Springer has had some back issues that tend to never go away. I'm not faulting management for that one, but it should be a caution to giving long term deals. Anyway, I digress. The problem with the roster is guys not being able to hit, and showed mediocre promise of doing so to begin with. Varsho and Kiermeier are positions which should be hitting. That's on management. IKF too at 3B, is on management. Turner I'm quite surprised isn't hitting. I didn't personally expect that. I thought he'd be average at least. 2nd, I'm not faulting them for giving Biggio a try because 2nd is a bonus position throughout the league for finding a hitter. Catcher I fully blame them for. They had an elite prospect in the wings and a lot of uncertainty about repeat performance for Jansen and Kirk. They gambled hard and lost painfully. That's fully on them. So by my calculation there are 4 positions (CF, LF, 3B and C) that should be providing some production on most teams, that pretty much had no chance of doing so coming into this season, and are living up to those expectations in spectacularly bad fashion. It's purely on the GM. I'd be much more inclined to get rid of fraud Atkins than the coaching staff (aside from the batting coach Martinez). It was obvious before the season started, and it's stamped in red now. It's simply a bad roster construction philosophy that got us here. That's purely on the GM who makes that strategic decision.

Center field and catcher are not usually high offensive production positions. I'm betting that if you compared Jansen's numbers this year to other catchers, he's near the top.

I don't discount the 3B/LF argument, but Varsho has provided good power and production despite his lower average, and a +++ defender on top of that. I've got no issues with Varsho this year, but he's probably better suited to center field with that production. 3B is a rotation, so there is a spot that could have been better filled, but there weren't a lot of options out there this year, so not much could have been done to better handle that spot.

[KelVarnsen]

Springer just did a thing

[Muffins]

So the connect jerseys have apparently leaked.....not the best.


Spoiler for size

Spoiler!

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by bluejays

To me there's a slight problem with Vladdy from an expectation standpoint. The problem is the overall construction of the team the past couple years. Springer has had some back issues that tend to never go away. I'm not faulting management for that one, but it should be a caution to giving long term deals. Anyway, I digress. The problem with the roster is guys not being able to hit, and showed mediocre promise of doing so to begin with. Varsho and Kiermeier are positions which should be hitting. That's on management. IKF too at 3B, is on management. Turner I'm quite surprised isn't hitting. I didn't personally expect that. I thought he'd be average at least. 2nd, I'm not faulting them for giving Biggio a try because 2nd is a bonus position throughout the league for finding a hitter. Catcher I fully blame them for. They had an elite prospect in the wings and a lot of uncertainty about repeat performance for Jansen and Kirk. They gambled hard and lost painfully. That's fully on them. So by my calculation there are 4 positions (CF, LF, 3B and C) that should be providing some production on most teams, that pretty much had no chance of doing so coming into this season, and are living up to those expectations in spectacularly bad fashion. It's purely on the GM. I'd be much more inclined to get rid of fraud Atkins than the coaching staff (aside from the batting coach Martinez). It was obvious before the season started, and it's stamped in red now. It's simply a bad roster construction philosophy that got us here. That's purely on the GM who makes that strategic decision.

You keep saying this , but you are mostly wrong

Have you seen how horrible Moreno is ? I’m guessing no ? He is basically Kirk at hitting .

Or maybe we keep Gurriel and his 0.3 WAR? For reference KK has a 0.7 WAR playing half the games

Even Teo having a surprising year protected by an elite Dodgers offense and costing 25$ million has 1 less WAR then Varsho

The Varsho trade is starting to look amazing for the Jays . Moreno is showing exactly what the Jays feared - he can’t hit for power and now can’t hit for average . Gurriel had half a good season until NL pitchers adjusted and realize he sucks

Chapman is actually having a very nice year but the Jays offered him 100 million and he turned it down . They then pivoted and moved on to get Turner and IKF . What did you expect them to do when he turned down an exceptionally better deal then he ended up signing

The Jays issues 100% is that Kirk , Springer , Bo and vladdy have taken huge steps back , and the bullpen is mostly garbage this year

(And that they can’t develop players / home grow any players to augment the team)

I hate this management and hate the coaching decisions, but they went after Ohtani seriously , and no one they have traded is really doing anything .

Their problem is hiring bad coaches and terrible player development - prospects and their younger roster players

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

You keep saying this , but you are mostly wrong

Have you seen how horrible Moreno is ? I’m guessing no ? He is basically Kirk at hitting .

Or maybe we keep Gurriel and his 0.3 WAR? For reference KK has a 0.7 WAR playing half the games

Even Teo having a surprising year protected by an elite Dodgers offense and costing 25$ million has 1 less WAR then Varsho

The Varsho trade is starting to look amazing for the Jays . Moreno is showing exactly what the Jays feared - he can’t hit for power and now can’t hit for average . Gurriel had half a good season until NL pitchers adjusted and realize he sucks

Chapman is actually having a very nice year but the Jays offered him 100 million and he turned it down . They then pivoted and moved on to get Turner and IKF . What did you expect them to do when he turned down an exceptionally better deal then he ended up signing

The Jays issues 100% is that Kirk , Springer , Bo and vladdy have taken huge steps back , and the bullpen is mostly garbage this year

(And that they can’t develop players / home grow any players to augment the team)

I hate this management and hate the coaching decisions, but they went after Ohtani seriously , and no one they have traded is really doing anything .

Their problem is hiring bad coaches and terrible player development - prospects and their younger roster players

Agreed. And the Jays actually do have a couple possibilities down in AAA, but they won't call them up. Just keep trotting out Springer and Turner instead.

[Party Elephant]

Jays beat the White Sox 5-1 this afternoon on home runs by Springer and Schneider.

Sadly, this is their last series against the White Sox this season.

[flamingred89]

All runs via HR. Normally not ideal. But for this team, this season. I'll definitely take it.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

Jays beat the White Sox 5-1 this afternoon on home runs by Springer and Schneider.

Sadly, this is their last series against the White Sox this season.

Yeah. If they got to play the White Sox for the rest of their games I'd think coming back was likely. But unfortunately there are lots of games vs the Orioles left and they're done with the Sox after Wednesday.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

Jays beat the White Sox 5-1 this afternoon on home runs by Springer and Schneider.

Sadly, this is their last series against the White Sox this season.

Bo also homered

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

You keep saying this , but you are mostly wrong

Have you seen how horrible Moreno is ? I’m guessing no ? He is basically Kirk at hitting .

Or maybe we keep Gurriel and his 0.3 WAR? For reference KK has a 0.7 WAR playing half the games

Even Teo having a surprising year protected by an elite Dodgers offense and costing 25$ million has 1 less WAR then Varsho

The Varsho trade is starting to look amazing for the Jays . Moreno is showing exactly what the Jays feared - he can’t hit for power and now can’t hit for average . Gurriel had half a good season until NL pitchers adjusted and realize he sucks

Chapman is actually having a very nice year but the Jays offered him 100 million and he turned it down . They then pivoted and moved on to get Turner and IKF . What did you expect them to do when he turned down an exceptionally better deal then he ended up signing

The Jays issues 100% is that Kirk , Springer , Bo and vladdy have taken huge steps back , and the bullpen is mostly garbage this year

(And that they can’t develop players / home grow any players to augment the team)

I hate this management and hate the coaching decisions, but they went after Ohtani seriously , and no one they have traded is really doing anything .

Their problem is hiring bad coaches and terrible player development - prospects and their younger roster players

I don't think I'm mostly wrong.


Moreno is in his second year. His upside was nice and we seen him do great things in last years playoffs. The jury is out on him as to if he can adjust to guys adjusting to him, but his upside and position scarcity would've been a nice future piece to keep.


Guerriel was never the apple of my eye. I was fairly indifferent at the time, though I think a one for one would've been fair for Varsho, though Varsho owns elite defence.


I also never advocated to keep Teo. His wild swings were terrible for the team. When he connected he was great but his plate discipline has always been bad.


How can anyone call the Varsho deal amazing? He doesn't do anything offensively. At best it's a wash. Him being a black hole in a good way one way, and terrible in another will never be a win for me.


I'm not arguing Bo and the others you mentioned have been bad. You have to have your best players perform. But if you claim your team is a championship calibre team, your supporting cast, the previous cast I mentioned, has to be pretty damn good. It's not like hockey where you can have a top heavy team and a bunch of nothings at the bottom. Championship calibre teams maybe have one mediocre guy in their lineup. Before the season began they had half the guys who were questionmarks. That's a management issue on team assembly. They were failed from the beginning.


All I'm saying that this is on the GM more than anyone. Agreed on the player development. It's a huge concern. Manoah was probably the last rookie to make an impact. So improvement is definitely needed there.


But I'll die on the hill that they were doomed from the roster construction to start the season. This wasn't a championship lineup, so your capability was limited to start because it was tabled that defence at the expense of offence could work out. So the capability was limited to start, and their big guns just fizzled which totally sucks.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by bluejays

How can anyone call the Varsho deal amazing? He doesn't do anything offensively. At best it's a wash. Him being a black hole in a good way one way, and terrible in another will never be a win for me.

Well he has been tied for the 13th most valuable player in all of baseball according to WAR, and 9th most valuable position players

https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders

The list of guys ahead of him

Betts
Witt Jr
Henderson
Tucker
Judge
Ohtani
Duran
Soto

Those are some pretty good players last I checked.

But instead we could be trotting out Gurriell (Assuming we even signed him) and his 0.3 WAR and Moreno and his 0.5 WAR!

This is why I say your wrong. Because you continue to think replacing Varsho, KK, IKF with.... someone.... (Who you never actually say who the someone's are) would make a difference

The problem is your presumed all stars

Vlad 1.4 WAR
Bo 0.1 WAR
Springer -0.5 WAR
Kirk 0.3 WAR

Thats a total of 1.3 WAR through a quarter of the season from your core hitters. These were the 1-4 hitters at times when they were hitting well, and almost always 4 of the top 6

To put it in prospective - Varsho who you call a black hole offensively has a 1.2 OFFENSIVE WAR

If we were trotting out 4 Varsho's - exluding his D - just on offense instead of those bums above, we would have another 4 wins.

Those 4 are underforming by about 6 wins so far this season. That would put the Jays at 30-23 and in the wild card. Add in a bullpen implosion no one saw coming which has cost a few wins, and the team is right there with Baltimore, etc.

It isn't the supporting cast that is the problem. It is the (presumed) all stars.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Well he has been tied for the 13th most valuable player in all of baseball according to WAR, and 9th most valuable position players

https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders

The list of guys ahead of him

Betts
Witt Jr
Henderson
Tucker
Judge
Ohtani
Duran
Soto

Those are some pretty good players last I checked.

But instead we could be trotting out Gurriell (Assuming we even signed him) and his 0.3 WAR and Moreno and his 0.5 WAR!

This is why I say your wrong. Because you continue to think replacing Varsho, KK, IKF with.... someone.... (Who you never actually say who the someone's are) would make a difference

The problem is your presumed all stars

Vlad 1.4 WAR
Bo 0.1 WAR
Springer -0.5 WAR
Kirk 0.3 WAR

Thats a total of 1.3 WAR through a quarter of the season from your core hitters. These were the 1-4 hitters at times when they were hitting well, and almost always 4 of the top 6

To put it in prospective - Varsho who you call a black hole offensively has a 1.2 OFFENSIVE WAR

If we were trotting out 4 Varsho's - exluding his D - just on offense instead of those bums above, we would have another 4 wins.

Those 4 are underforming by about 6 wins so far this season. That would put the Jays at 30-23 and in the wild card. Add in a bullpen implosion no one saw coming which has cost a few wins, and the team is right there with Baltimore, etc.

It isn't the supporting cast that is the problem. It is the (presumed) all stars.

There are a lot of no-names who've over performed on that list but anyway, you're presenting stats so I won't argue too much because much of it is on the stars. The argument of Guerriel or anyone isn't my point. It wasn't solely built off this past off-season. It's been a culmination of mistakes and mismanagement that's brought us here, all by management. It's not who did they sign in the off-season. It's about things like, "how's our drafting been?"; "how's our player development coming along?"; "are we dealing prospects at the right time to win now? And at what cost to the future?"; "are we spending the right amount of our internal budget on the right players?"; "what is our aging curve looking like on the guys we're spending a lot on?". A lot of mismanagement on all those questions, to me at least.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Well he has been tied for the 13th most valuable player in all of baseball according to WAR, and 9th most valuable position players

https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders

The list of guys ahead of him

Betts
Witt Jr
Henderson
Tucker
Judge
Ohtani
Duran
Soto

Those are some pretty good players last I checked.

But instead we could be trotting out Gurriell (Assuming we even signed him) and his 0.3 WAR and Moreno and his 0.5 WAR!

This is why I say your wrong. Because you continue to think replacing Varsho, KK, IKF with.... someone.... (Who you never actually say who the someone's are) would make a difference

The problem is your presumed all stars

Vlad 1.4 WAR
Bo 0.1 WAR
Springer -0.5 WAR
Kirk 0.3 WAR

Thats a total of 1.3 WAR through a quarter of the season from your core hitters. These were the 1-4 hitters at times when they were hitting well, and almost always 4 of the top 6

To put it in prospective - Varsho who you call a black hole offensively has a 1.2 OFFENSIVE WAR

If we were trotting out 4 Varsho's - exluding his D - just on offense instead of those bums above, we would have another 4 wins.

Those 4 are underforming by about 6 wins so far this season. That would put the Jays at 30-23 and in the wild card. Add in a bullpen implosion no one saw coming which has cost a few wins, and the team is right there with Baltimore, etc.

It isn't the supporting cast that is the problem. It is the (presumed) all stars.

And this is why it annoys me when people attack Atkins for this mess.

Yes, he has to take the blame in the end, but he actually built a good team, he just built it around what ended up being a rotten core. And I didn't hear anyone predicting in 2022 that Bo, Vlad, Springer and Kirk were the wrong guys to build around. Just about anyone would have done it.

[Since1984]

Originally Posted by Muffins

So the connect jerseys have apparently leaked.....not the best.


Spoiler for size

Spoiler!

I initially shared the apparent leaked hat and was convinced that the cap and these Jerseys were real leaks... Now I'm less convinced. Latest tweet from the Jays focuses on the CN tower with a blue and purple glow, very very familiar to the colors of some of that Jays newer batting glove additions, specifically George Springer and Alejandro Kirk.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1795147449532604608

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Since1984

I initially shared the apparent leaked hat and was convinced that the cap and these Jerseys were real leaks... Now I'm less convinced. Latest tweet from the Jays focuses on the CN tower with a blue and purple glow, very very familiar to the colors of some of that Jays newer batting glove additions, specifically George Springer and Alejandro Kirk.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1795147449532604608

The hat looked legit. The jersey did not. The jersey specifically looked like one of those test designs which was ultimately canned.

[KelVarnsen]

He gets us is a terrorist organization

[FireGilbert]

Late start with a rain delay. Jays up 3-1 mid 5th thanks to a 2nd inning 2 out rally from the bottom of the order and Schneider. Just failed to go up further with Turner swinging at junk with men on 2nd and 3rd. Gausman looking great but will need a couple innings from the pen.

[activeStick]

Wow didn't even think they'd actually get to play today... Go Jays!