[News] Flames recall Pelletier and Duehr. Ritchie to IR

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Don’t their strength and conditioning coaches give them offseason and in season routines to follow?

They do but it takes more than a few months to bulk up. Were you stronger at 21 or 25?

[Toonage]

Meh. Still excuses to not put him in. Not like he's getting killed by bigger meaner opposition in the AHL. He'd be fine in the NHL.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Boy he was quick on the "I like Jakob" reply too.

Ugh such a fascinating conversation he was engaging in, and then Wills totally ends it with a dumb question about Cale Makar/Roman Josi.
This is the number one thing Flames are interested in right now - use of young players in the lineup.
Sutter is taking you through his approach in a very thoughtful and transparent way.
And effin' Wills comes along and asks about Cale Makar and that's the end of that because that's the question he decided he was going to ask. Instead of asking a follow-up conversation about player development at the NHL level.

Yup. You can tell Sutter’s opinion of Wills in just about all of his responses, too.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Meh. Still excuses to not put him in. Not like he's getting killed by bigger meaner opposition in the AHL. He'd be fine in the NHL.

I am not so sure it's an excuse - as he truly believes it but it certainly illustrates just how out of date his approach/mindset is. Mangiapane obviously wasn't as strong as he is today back in 2018-19, but you can't tell me for a second that he wasn't incredible effective in his minutes that season or didn't make the team significantly better. He did, and there is certainly reason to believe Pelletier could have at the very least a similar impact. Dube/Mangiapane would not have seen NHL minutes that season under Sutter, and they would have very likely been worse off for it as a result.

If it's not a size issue with these young guys, then its a consistency issue, etc... There is always a "reason" to keep these veterans playing ahead of these young guys with Sutter.

[Naitix]

The only thing I do not agree with from Sutter in that press conference is that Pelletier is not in because they are not 10 up or 10 down. Somebody like Pelletier would help you get closer to 10 up, I do not know why he views rookies as detriments and not assets that help you win. Plenty of rookies on good NHL teams that help them win

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

I am not so sure it's an excuse - as he truly believes it but it certainly illustrates just how out of date his approach/mindset is. Mangiapane obviously wasn't as strong as he is today back in 2018-19, but you can't tell me for a second that he wasn't incredible effective in his minutes that season or didn't make the team significantly better. He did, and there is certainly reason to believe Pelletier could have at the very least a similar impact. Dube/Mangiapane would not have seen NHL minutes that season under Sutter, and they would have very likely been worse off for it as a result.

If it's not a size issue with these young guys, then its a consistency issue, etc... There is always a "reason" to keep these veterans playing ahead of these young guys with Sutter.

And they have points in 17 of the last 21 games with the guy most out of place on the line that's doing the greatest share of the five on five scoring.

I want to see Pelletier, I honestly do.

But there are tangible reasons to leave the roster as is.

Lucic is 2nd on the team since they put the line together for on ice goals (behind Kadri and just ahead of Huberdeau). I don't think they're playing that well, but their productive and it's contributed to points in the standings.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And they have points in 17 of the last 21 games with the guy most out of place on the line that's doing the greatest share of the five on five scoring.

I want to see Pelletier, I honestly do.

But there are tangible reasons to leave the roster as is.

Lucic is 2nd on the team since they put the line together for on ice goals (behind Kadri and just ahead of Huberdeau). I don't think they're playing that well, but their productive and it's contributed to points in the standings.

Yeah and honestly that is part of it - that line has worked from an actual production perspective even if it might be a bit of smoke and mirrors and shooting % luck at this point.

Personally I think I have more issue with how that line came together to start with.

Lucic was an offensive black hole for 60 games, get's healthy scratched for 2, and then comes back to a premier offensive role next to Kadri and Huberdeau with Ruzicka demoted to 4th line and Lucic didn't really deserve or earn that look to be honest.

I take more issue with the fact that Pelletier or Phillips weren't given an opportunity on that line at that time when Lucic was added to the line - because really that was the time where the opportunity should have been provided to them.

It's worked out - so that's great to see as a Flames fan but I still don't think it's sustainable long term to have Lucic there and really the team needs to be quick to not wait too long to react when it stops working at some point.

In terms of getting Pelletier a game right now though I think it's Duehr that comes out. He was good his first two games, but wasn't as good the last two, and really this team shouldn't be afraid to give Pelletier-Ruzicka-Lewis a couple games now instead.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And they have points in 17 of the last 21 games with the guy most out of place on the line that's doing the greatest share of the five on five scoring.

I want to see Pelletier, I honestly do.

But there are tangible reasons to leave the roster as is.

Lucic is 2nd on the team since they put the line together for on ice goals (behind Kadri and just ahead of Huberdeau). I don't think they're playing that well, but their productive and it's contributed to points in the standings.

I agree the collective of this team is playing better but we still have 11 losses in the past 21 games. The team isn't winning games at a rate that makes it impossible to make lineup changes. A little proactivity would be appreciated. I can't think of a time this season where atleast one of Milan Lucic or Trevor Lewis were not playing top nine minutes. That's not maximizing the skillsets of the players on your roster. We have yet to truly see this lineup slotted correctly for any relevant period of time and I don't think it's a coincidence that we have been unable to string together a meaningful win streak as a result.

This argument also doesn't work for me as it doesn't apply to all players on the roster - for example, Dan Vladar and Adam Ruzicka.

Ruzicka was demoted despite being the most productive even strength forward on the roster at the time. Additionally the team had a 3-1-3 (.643 pts% with two shootout losses) record in the 7 games prior to his minutes being cut. So not only was Ruzicka producing incredibly well (7 points in 7 games), but the team was also netting points. Vladar continues to get patch work starts despite winning and or producing points for this team in the vast majority of his appearances. In both these cases the "veterans" have been deferred to.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah and honestly that is part of it - that line has worked from an actual production perspective even if it might be a bit of smoke and mirrors and shooting % luck at this point.

Personally I think I have more issue with how that line came together to start with.

Lucic was an offensive black hole for 60 games, get's healthy scratched for 2, and then comes back to a premier offensive role next to Kadri and Huberdeau with Ruzicka demoted to 4th line and Lucic didn't really deserve or earn that look to be honest.

I take more issue with the fact that Pelletier or Phillips weren't given an opportunity on that line at that time when Lucic was added to the line - because really that was the time where the opportunity should have been provided to them.

It's worked out - so that's great to see as a Flames fan but I still don't think it's sustainable long term to have Lucic there and really the team needs to be quick to not wait too long to react when it stops working at some point.

In terms of getting Pelletier a game right now though I think it's Duehr that comes out. He was good his first two games, but wasn't as good the last two, and really this team shouldn't be afraid to give Pelletier-Ruzicka-Lewis a couple games now instead.

Lucic has puck skills that do mesh with those players to some degree ... but he makes me nervous in his own zone.

And agreed, Duehr took a big step back in Nashville.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

I agree the collective of this team is playing better but we still have 11 losses in the past 21 games. The team isn't winning games at a rate that makes it impossible to make lineup changes. A little proactivity would be appreciated. I can't think of a time this season where atleast one of Milan Lucic or Trevor Lewis were not playing top nine minutes. That's not maximizing the skillsets of the players on your roster. We have yet to truly see this lineup slotted correctly for any relevant period of time and I don't think it's a coincidence that we have been unable to string together a meaningful win streak as a result.

This argument also doesn't work for me as it doesn't apply to all players on the roster - for example, Dan Vladar and Adam Ruzicka.

Ruzicka was demoted despite being the most productive even strength forward on the roster at the time. Additionally the team had a 3-1-3 (.643 pts% with two shootout losses) record in the 7 games prior to his minutes being cut. So not only was Ruzicka producing incredibly well (7 points in 7 games), but the team was also netting points. Vladar continues to get patch work starts despite winning and or producing points for this team in the vast majority of his appearances. In both these cases the "veterans" have been deferred to.

Well Lewis and Lucic have played 104 minutes together this season which is about 10 games, and it wasn't in the top nine.

Ruzicka has skills for sure, and I hope he gets another opportunity but he disappears for long stretches.

The Flames have 5 clear cut wingers on this team.

Dube
Toffoli
Mangipane
Coleman
Huberdeau

Those veterans are never coming out of the lineup.

They could move Lucic down, and I think they will, but Ruzicka has to steal that spot and he won't if the Kadri line keeps out scoring their metrics.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well Lewis and Lucic have played 104 minutes together this season which is about 10 games, and it wasn't in the top nine.

To me that's a very inconsequential amount of time considering that indicates one of them has been playing above where they should be in the lineup for the vast majority of the season. These are not top nine forwards.

I agree with you. These guys wont come out of the lineup (and I don't think Lewis should) but that's my issue. If Sutter can't trust Lucic enough to perform and contribute at an adequate level in the role he absolutely should be in, then he shouldn't be in the lineup at all. He's relying on Ruzicka to carry that fourth line and is having to shelter Lucic with the big boys and while they are punching well above expected results it's hard not to see (both visually and analytically) that he's a detriment to them. We have far better options for that second line spot. Sutter can say Pelletier or Ruzicka don't have the size/strength or consistency for that role, but Lucic certainly no longer has the skillset to be there either, nor the upside to have any long term impact.

I personally think Darryl is wrong in this case and his roster decisions unjustified. Lucic didn't steal that spot from Ruzicka to begin with - in fact he played so poorly, for so long ( 80+ games) that he was scratched and immediately given a top six spot among his return. The standards and expectations each player is held to is not the same across the board. That's my problem.

[Reggie Dunlop]

How long is Ritchie out for?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

To me that's a very inconsequential amount of time considering that indicates one of them has been playing above where they should be in the lineup for the vast majority of the season. These are not top nine forwards.

I agree with you. These guys wont come out of the lineup (and I don't think Lewis should) but that's my issue. If Sutter can't trust Lucic enough to perform and contribute at an adequate level in the role he absolutely should be in, then he shouldn't be in the lineup at all. He's relying on Ruzicka to carry that fourth line and is having to shelter Lucic with the big boys and while they are punching well above expected results it's hard not to see (both visually and analytically) that he's a detriment to them. We have far better options for that second line spot. Sutter can say Pelletier or Ruzicka don't have the size/strength or consistency for that role, but Lucic certainly no longer has the skillset to be there either, nor the upside to have any long term impact.

I personally think Darryl is wrong in this case and his roster decisions unjustified. Lucic didn't steal that spot from Ruzicka to begin with - in fact he played so poorly, for so long ( 80+ games) that he was scratched and immediately given a top six spot among his return. The standards and expectations each player is held to is not the same across the board. That's my problem.

Well you said you couldn't remember a time when one of them wasn't in the top nine ... I'm pointing out that was the case for what 20% of their games? 25?

If you agree that the other five aren't coming out, then you're literally down to Lucic who you think should be removed from his role despite his line (not him himself) leading the way in production.

How can that make any sense to you?

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well you said you couldn't remember a time when one of them wasn't in the top nine ... I'm pointing out that was the case for what 20% of their games? 25?

If you agree that the other five aren't coming out, then you're literally down to Lucic who you think should be removed from his role despite his line (not him himself) leading the way in production.

How can that make any sense to you?

You and I could go back and fourth on this until we are blue in the face.

I'll simply leave it by saying, no, it doesn't make sense to me to have your worst NHL forward in your top six. Nor does it make sense to pair him alongside your two most electric offensive forwards. You may disagree, but everything suggests that the line is producing* in spite of #17. He has just 3 points in his last 11 games and has absolutely drained Huberdeau specifically from an analytical perspective. An on ice SH% of 14% is masking the trio's deficiencies as a unit.

[GioforPM]

I’m not going to suggest Sutter doesn’t prefer size. He probably does. And smaller players obviously can excel. But it’s not an absurd position by Sutter either. Even Dube and Mangiapane, who get plenty of ice time, do good things but then quite often lose the puck on the end boards to bigger and heavier players. It’s hard. And those guys have NHL muscle.