Electric vehicle war, is gas soon to be toast?

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Diamonds aren't abundant.

Neither is pure hydrogen. I'd love to know why you think a captive element is the same as the element being readily available.

[greyshep]

We are looking at buying an EV for my wife. Budget is 50k cdn. Considering the availability being so poor we’ve come to the conclusion that a Nissan Leaf or a Chev bolt EUV are the most realistically attainable in that range. Any others that the hive mind here could suggest?

It seems like most other options we’ve seen we would be looking at 18 months or longer, or the price hits 75k and above.

Happy to hear any ideas anyone else has.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by greyshep

We are looking at buying an EV for my wife. Budget is 50k cdn. Considering the availability being so poor we’ve come to the conclusion that a Nissan Leaf or a Chev bolt EUV are the most realistically attainable in that range. Any others that the hive mind here could suggest?

It seems like most other options we’ve seen we would be looking at 18 months or longer, or the price hits 75k and above.

Happy to hear any ideas anyone else has.

I test drove the Hyundai Ioniq 5 not too long ago, that’s a nice vehicle, but might be looking into 2023 to get one too.

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I test drove the Hyundai Ioniq 5 not too long ago, that’s a nice vehicle, but might be looking into 2023 to get one too.

Yeah I found a reddit page talking about how those are a long way out. Tough time to find any car let alone an EV it seems.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by greyshep

Yeah I found a reddit page talking about how those are a long way out. Tough time to find any car let alone an EV it seems.

That's why I'm sticking with a cheaper ICE car this year, and look into trading it in for an EV in 5 years or so when supply issues should be better and the technology is more fleshed out

[photon]

I was thinking about that, if I got an EV now I wonder if it would be better to lease it.

I.e. maybe there's some new battery evolution that comes up that really hurts the resale value of current EVs.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by greyshep

We are looking at buying an EV for my wife. Budget is 50k cdn. Considering the availability being so poor we’ve come to the conclusion that a Nissan Leaf or a Chev bolt EUV are the most realistically attainable in that range. Any others that the hive mind here could suggest?

It seems like most other options we’ve seen we would be looking at 18 months or longer, or the price hits 75k and above.

Happy to hear any ideas anyone else has.

Very strongly recommend against a leaf. Even the new ones do not have thermal management for the battery which means both winter range and capacity loss will be awful. The bolt is decent, but if you can wait the Ioniq 5 and VW ID4 are far superior.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Very strongly recommend against a leaf. Even the new ones do not have thermal management for the battery which means both winter range and capacity loss will be awful. The bolt is decent, but if you can wait the Ioniq 5 and VW ID4 are far superior.

The Bolt is really going to depend on how much it’s going to sell for. It’s a great car, and if it’s significantly cheaper than other options, it would be a great option.

I don’t know if they have sped up it’s DC fast charging speed from 50 kW, which is slow for a EV these days. It’s not going to be an issue if you just use it to commute, but if you are ever intending to do road trips, something like an IOniq 5 with its 200+ kW max charging speed is going to be much better.


I don’t know if I’d be too worried about battery technology advancing to a point where a new EV down the road is going to be so much better than current cars.

Current EVs are capable of doing anything without much change to current habits. Maybe you have to rest for 20 minutes every 3 hours. It probably gets hard to deliver power fast enough to improve the charge times significantly anyway. Batteries may become lighter, but that doesn’t make current vehicles less capable.

That said, I’d definitely want a car that can charge at 150-200kW, and even with that, not all cars have the same charge curve. Vehicles that have the same max charge rate may have significantly different chrage curves, effecting how long they take to charge. Some vehicles slow down more than others above 80%, or with the battery mostly discharged.

[photon]

I see some Ioniq 5's on Autotrader, so there does seem to be some stock. Almost all RWD models though, one AWD premium going into Edmonton.

More Teslas than I'd have expected, seems people are trying to sell their cars for a profit since used ones are going for more $$ than brand new?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

The Bolt is really going to depend on how much it’s going to sell for. It’s a great car, and if it’s significantly cheaper than other options, it would be a great option.

I don’t know if they have sped up it’s DC fast charging speed from 50 kW, which is slow for a EV these days. It’s not going to be an issue if you just use it to commute, but if you are ever intending to do road trips, something like an IOniq 5 with its 200+ kW max charging speed is going to be much better.


I don’t know if I’d be too worried about battery technology advancing to a point where a new EV down the road is going to be so much better than current cars.

Current EVs are capable of doing anything without much change to current habits. Maybe you have to rest for 20 minutes every 3 hours. It probably gets hard to deliver power fast enough to improve the charge times significantly anyway. Batteries may become lighter, but that doesn’t make current vehicles less capable.

That said, I’d definitely want a car that can charge at 150-200kW, and even with that, not all cars have the same charge curve. Vehicles that have the same max charge rate may have significantly different chrage curves, effecting how long they take to charge. Some vehicles slow down more than others above 80%, or with the battery mostly discharged.

Yup. My only issues with the Bolt is it's really small and as you say, the 50kW charging and it's charging curve makes any long trips impossible. I like to tell people who aren't as used to this stuff as you and I to think of it like this:

You get about 6 km/kWh in the battery. At 50 kWh you're getting 300 Km per hour of charging at maximum rate which already seems awful. But that's not the worst part. No car charges at max power the whole time it's plugged in. As you get closer to full charge the rate goes down significantly because excess heat is produced. Specifically for the Bolt, it stays around 50 kW until a little after 50% charged. By the time you're at 75%, you're down to 30kW. By 85% you're at 20kW, and so on. Having to stop for an hour or more every 240km just does not seem realistic for any sort of trip.

Contrast that with the Ioniq 5 like you suggested that not only charges 3-4 times faster, it also holds the higher charge for longer. If you do any sort of trips that is going to be massive. Then you're stopping for 15-20 minutes every 350-400km. That's a massive difference

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by photon

I see some Ioniq 5's on Autotrader, so there does seem to be some stock. Almost all RWD models though, one AWD premium going into Edmonton.

We pre-ordered in mid-Oct and received our Ioniq 5 long range preferred RWD early Jan. People that pre-ordered the AWD Ultimate package much earlier than us had to wait longer. There is a much shorter wait list for long ranged preferred RWD vs the AWD ultimate package. I think this is because there is much more technology requiring chips and electronic components in the ultimate package. It has higher demand for good reason but wait is also affected by supply chain issues like all EVs. Our friend ordered a model 3 around the same time as us and had a few weeks shorter wait but received her car with no USB ports because she was told there were supply issues. Not a big deal and she can get them installed if she likes with an appointment sometime in the future but still goes to show supply for all manufacturers is a problem.

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Contrast that with the Ioniq 5 like you suggested that not only charges 3-4 times faster, it also holds the higher charge for longer. If you do any sort of trips that is going to be massive. Then you're stopping for 15-20 minutes every 350-400km. That's a massive difference

Fast charging was one of the biggest reasons why we ordered Ioniq5 over ID4 or MachE. I'm very happy with it but have been surprised how bad non Tesla fast charging infrastructure is still (not that it has effected me whatsoever). In Victoria the highest reliable chargers are BChydro 50kW chargers. Petro Canada is supposed to have 350kW chargers but came in at a whopping 40kW but at least was free. Looking at PlugShare app which allows feedback for every station PetroCanada and Shell are either throttling or majority of stations don't work properly as users report <100kW rates but some stations are still charging 0.27/min. Seems criminal they are charging for time but don't offer the advertised charging rates. Electrify Canada has much better reports with app check-ins charging rates reported to be as advertised at 150kW. Noteworthy that although Tesla has better infrastructure the fastest charger on the Island is only 120kW in Nanaimo and 72kW locally so pretty similar to what I can get since Electrify Canada has a working 150kW station in Nanaimo for road trips to Tofino. Vancouver to Calgary is covered much better but interestingly Edmonton still has very poor DC charging infrastructure from what I can see available. It will all change fast as ElectrifyCanada expands and I hope Petro Canada and Shell offers advertised rates and keep expanding their networks.

Anyways point being is that despite all the research we did we couldn't really fathom how different fueling an EV is. Its ridiculously cheap to charge at home overnight so battery is kept 60-80%. Its more important that the EV has good range in my opinion at this point vs fast charging since DC fast charging infrastructure is lacking.

[greyshep]

Interesting replies. I am not sure I am too worried about the 55kW fast charge limitation on the Bolt EUV because when I search out fast chargers in AB it seems rare to find one that puts out any more than 50 anyways. Am I wrong here?

It seems like the Bolt is the best value proposition currently. Not super expensive, free level 2 charger installation in your home included and qualifies for the govt $5000 rebate.

I would love a VW ID4 but those are apparently a 3yr wait now according to the dealership I called here in cgy. We would burn a lot of fuel with my wifes work commuting in those 3 years. She has a free level 2 charger at her work too so charging costs should be fairly low I would think.

We have a deposit on a Bolt EUV but still have time to bail out if I decide its not the best move. I am trying to educate myself in this space but it seems like there is so much to take in.

[photon]

Originally Posted by CASe333

Anyways point being is that despite all the research we did we couldn't really fathom how different fueling an EV is. Its ridiculously cheap to charge at home overnight so battery is kept 60-80%. Its more important that the EV has good range in my opinion at this point vs fast charging since DC fast charging infrastructure is lacking.

Even where there is infrastructure you point out one of the biggest issues still.. sure the car says it's capable of some level, and the charger says it can deliver some level, but if you're only getting 70kW instead of 150kW the question is WHY, and the technology doesn't tell you.

That should be instantly visible to the consumer. I should know if I'm charging slower because the battery is cold.. or because the charging curve is ramping up.. or because the charger isn't able to provide what it says it can..

Leaving it a mystery makes it very frustrating for people who have to try different things to figure it out themselves. Not many people enjoy debugging their car.

[Fuzz]

Yup, some people thrive on all this info, and finding ways to optimize. But for most, a vehicle is a utility. And when it doesn't work as expected(I charged here last week in 20 minutes, now it says 60???) it will all be more than they want to deal with. Poorly implemented EV's will turn some people off, cause them to switch back to ICE and do more damage than necessary to the switch. They really need to get the details right.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by greyshep

Interesting replies. I am not sure I am too worried about the 55kW fast charge limitation on the Bolt EUV because when I search out fast chargers in AB it seems rare to find one that puts out any more than 50 anyways. Am I wrong here?

It seems like the Bolt is the best value proposition currently. Not super expensive, free level 2 charger installation in your home included and qualifies for the govt $5000 rebate.

I would love a VW ID4 but those are apparently a 3yr wait now according to the dealership I called here in cgy. We would burn a lot of fuel with my wifes work commuting in those 3 years. She has a free level 2 charger at her work too so charging costs should be fairly low I would think.

We have a deposit on a Bolt EUV but still have time to bail out if I decide its not the best move. I am trying to educate myself in this space but it seems like there is so much to take in.

Bolt seems like the best value on the market IMO...I am assuming your family has another vehicle too you could use the odd time the EV won't meet your needs?

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Bolt seems like the best value on the market IMO...I am assuming your family has another vehicle too you could use the odd time the EV won't meet your needs?

Yes we have too many cars already, so we certainly have options if we want to take a trip into the boonies. This would not be used as a holiday vehicle, its too small. Even with the stated 395km range, I dont think we would use it in that range.

Mostly a commuter car for my wife who commutes about 70km round trip 3 days per week and commutes 150km round trip the other 2 days.

Its the 2 days a week that gives me a bit of pause with the drastic drop in range mid winter without a heat pump on the Bolt. I am hoping if I estimate pessimistically she would still get half the range in winter?

[photon]

I saw one graph that said a 32% reduction in range at freezing vs 20 degrees though I can't find it now. Colder would be more, but would you hit 50% reduction that would make 150km round trip iffy? Hard to say.

https://www.auto123.com/en/car-revie...y-range/65676/

Might want to find a Bolt owners forum and see if there's any Canadian owners that can comment.

EDIT: This suggests that -30 might get close: https://www.geotab.com/fleet-managem...perature-tool/ (the tool is kinda broken for me, I could only get down to -23 for 175km)

[Mazrim]

It looks like Calgary had around 24 days where the overnight temperature was below -20C this winter. That's not even looking at daytime temperatures or anything. Is that enough cold nights to make you adjust what kind of vehicle you'd buy?

If the chances of you needing to do a large trip in the coldest weather is really low, wouldn't it make more sense to just buy the smaller capacity vehicle to save money, and then rent a ICE car in those rare instances? It'd be like buying a big truck because you might want to move some furniture every couple years, when you can just rent one when you need it.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

It looks like Calgary had around 24 days where the overnight temperature was below -20C this winter. That's not even looking at daytime temperatures or anything. Is that enough cold nights to make you adjust what kind of vehicle you'd buy?

If the chances of you needing to do a large trip in the coldest weather is really low, wouldn't it make more sense to just buy the smaller capacity vehicle to save money, and then rent a ICE car in those rare instances? It'd be like buying a big truck because you might want to move some furniture every couple years, when you can just rent one when you need it.

Is that from Jan 1st on? or November to now?

seems low, didn't we have like 24 in a row like that around christmas

[peter12]

Gas will be dead in ten years. Maybe even sooner. EV tech and adoption is starting to scale exponentially.