Brad Treliving needs to go

[Two Fivenagame]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Hillier helped them get to the playoffs, and was only a 2 year deal. Elliot was acquired through trade. Simon Lievo and Ritchie are 1 year league min contracts (who cares, happens every year on all or most teams). Raymond, that was 7 years ago, just let it go man, it’s okay to move on. Brouwer and Neal were bad signings, but if you think other teams/GM’s aren’t making bad UFA signings, you’re not paying attention. If you also think Treliving’s successor is going to bat 1.00 on UFA signings especially in a market like Calgary, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.

Markstrom, a mistake? You willing to stick with that take?

You complain about Treliving not being able to find RW talent, what do you think he was trying to do with Brouwer and Neal? What about Czarnik? Where else were they going to get this top line RW and at what cost?

All I wanted to do was show some evidence to support my opinion that BT hasn't really learned from his mistakes. And if he has, it only took 7 years.

Let me ask you a question. How long does a NHL GM with mediocre performance get to run a team? How many years of no playoffs or 1st round flops while spending at the cap? More than 7 years?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TOfan

To my recollection the Flames were picked by most to make the playoffs. It’s been a bad year, the team has underachieved, I don’t think many would argue that.

Is that the GM’s fault? In large part, I would say no. Who has performed well on ice? Tanev, Hanifin, & maybe Mangiapane? Other than that, it’s been a mix of okay to poor. Is the GM responsible for these 20-ish players not performing to their capabilities? All of them? Really?

Huh?

What is the GM responsible for if it’s not team performance and success?

That is the challenge of being a GM, getting the pieces, players and coaches, that work together.

He actually should have accountability

[CroCop]

Originally Posted by jg13

Hanifin prob worth more considering term and price.

True. Anyone else?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Huh?

What is the GM responsible for if it’s not team performance and success?

That is the challenge of being a GM, getting the pieces, players and coaches, that work together.

He actually should have accountability

Again, the players have underperformed. You don’t see that, or are you willfully ignoring that?

Treliving’s hands have been tied since the pandemic started over a year ago. If you can’t acknowledge that, then I would say you’re being unreasonable. Perhaps your crystal ball works better than Treliving’s but breaking up the team two offseasons ago after being the second highest scoring team in the league and tied with the second best record in the league didn’t seem to be in the cards, and it would be hard to fault him for thinking that way.

Sure, they got spanked by the avalanche, but going back the following season was a completely reasonable approach.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TOfan

This teams true potential? More than what we have seen this year. Regardless, I think there is going to be 2, or more, significant changes to this roster this offseason. I think there’s good reason to believe this team is capable of bouncing back.

It’s easy to say ‘blow it up’ or ‘fire Treliving’ right now, those are low rent takes.

So what exactly changes with these significant moves? Where do the goals come from? Where do the Flames land that elite #1 center that all Stanley Cup winners win with? Depth, slotting, strength up the middle, game breaking ability. These are all things that this team lacks compared to other contending teams. You can't fix all these problems over night.

That's why Treliving has been building and building and building for years and they're still exactly where they were when he first started because it's just so hard to gain traction in this league. Now the pieces to be moved have less value then they ever have and I just don't see how this can be retooled to become a Stanley Cup winner. Cut your losses now because Colorado and Vegas look absolutely frightening and the Oilers and Jets looked poised to take another step to the next level.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Two Fivenagame

All I wanted to do was show some evidence to support my opinion that BT hasn't really learned from his mistakes. And if he has, it only took 7 years.

Let me ask you a question. How long does a NHL GM with mediocre performance get to run a team? How many years of no playoffs or 1st round flops while spending at the cap? More than 7 years?

I think it runs deeper than what you are alluding to. Not everything Treliving is responsible for is open to the public. As far as I see it, the organization is in a much stronger place today than it was when he took over. The team is now graduating 1-2 players/year to the NHL team. Compare that to the 7 years prior.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I don't think Rasmus has 'struggled' with Gio. He is the same player as he has been last season, and perhaps the season before that. He simply hasn't taken a step forward as we hoped. Maybe he will, or maybe his lack of footspeed will always hinder him just enough to expose him too often as a top pairing defencemen. Either way, he hasn't regressed. He just hasn't grown into his role this season, and it seems to be more glaring by the month.


As for Treliving - I don't think he deserves to be fired. I don't think he deserves to be retained.


I have no idea what this mess of a team is. It seemed to be really good. I think this team misses Brodie and his ability to transition, but even being possibly the biggest Brodie fan on this board (assuming BigBrodieFan is gone!), this only scratches the surface on what ails the Flames.


I don't know what stinks, but something stinks fierce. Maybe it is the culture. Maybe the mix. Maybe injuries regressed certain key players. Maybe apathy. I have no idea. I see a dead team. They play with effort mostly, but they play like losers now, which I don't know how to exactly explain to make you understand that statement. They aren't losers because they are losing, or because I am suddenly immature and mad at them. They are simply going out there and expecting to lose, but put in a full effort (mostly, IMO). It just seems like they walk into the game and expect to lose. Maybe it is just me.


So does Treliving really deserve to get fired? I don't know. I didn't think this team on paper was that bad. I didn't think it was a contender. Aside from catching lightning in a bottle, I didn't expect this team to make it to the Finals, for starters. I did view this team as 'comfortably in the playoffs' team, and felt that they should be turning that corner into a consistent playoff team.


Somehow the bottom fell out, and the Flames are free-falling into rebuild status. Not convinced a retool will really work - see a retool as a bit of an asset devaluation (death by 1000 cuts) until a team is forced to rebuild, but there are plenty of teams that have done retools very well. Either way, pretty sure that everyone here is going to be expecting some rather large changes this off-season.


For now, I would just trade the upcoming UFAs until the trade deadline. This team is tanking just fine right now as it is built. Make the changes in the off-season unless there are deals that are too good to pass up. I would just be scared that a bunch of players from the farm would come in here, breathe-in too much excitement and start helping this team win when it counts the least.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

So what exactly changes with these significant moves? Where do the goals come from? Where do the Flames land that elite #1 center that all Stanley Cup winners win with? Depth, slotting, strength up the middle, game breaking ability. These are all things that this team lacks compared to other contending teams. You can't fix all these problems over night.

That's why Treliving has been building and building and building for years and they're still exactly where they were when he first started because it's just so hard to gain traction in this league. Now the pieces to be moved have less value then they ever have and I just don't see how this can be retooled to become a Stanley Cup winner. Cut your losses now because Colorado and Vegas look absolutely frightening and the Oilers and Jets looked poised to take another step to the next level.

Curious you point to Vegas, who’s their No1C?

Is ROR an elite 1C? Was he considered that before he won the cup?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

So what exactly changes with these significant moves? Where do the goals come from? Where do the Flames land that elite #1 center that all Stanley Cup winners win with? Depth, slotting, strength up the middle, game breaking ability. These are all things that this team lacks compared to other contending teams. You can't fix all these problems over night.

That's why Treliving has been building and building and building for years and they're still exactly where they were when he first started because it's just so hard to gain traction in this league. Now the pieces to be moved have less value then they ever have and I just don't see how this can be retooled to become a Stanley Cup winner. Cut your losses now because Colorado and Vegas look absolutely frightening and the Oilers and Jets looked poised to take another step to the next level.

I’ll also add Treliving has shown he has the balls to make major moves. Did you see either Hamilton trade coming, or at least as it turned out?

[Jig]

The key problem with BT is that he overvalues his players and waits too long to move them. When the whole league knows they are no good it is too late to sell. It is hard to win trades when everybody knows your players are no good. Changes have to be made quickly. I would shut Monahan down and everybody else you can and tank for a good draft choice.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Again, the players have underperformed. You don’t see that, or are you willfully ignoring that?

Treliving’s hands have been tied since the pandemic started over a year ago. If you can’t acknowledge that, then I would say you’re being unreasonable. Perhaps your crystal ball works better than Treliving’s but breaking up the team two offseasons ago after being the second highest scoring team in the league and tied with the second best record in the league didn’t seem to be in the cards, and it would be hard to fault him for thinking that way.

Sure, they got spanked by the avalanche, but going back the following season was a completely reasonable approach.

I agree with most of the second half of your post

I’m a fan and the Flames pay me nothing. But something happened around all star break 2019.

Brad makes the big money to figure out what that is. He hasn’t.

Doesn’t matter if what he thinks is understandable, it matters if it works

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I don't think Rasmus has 'struggled' with Gio. He is the same player as he has been last season, and perhaps the season before that. He simply hasn't taken a step forward as we hoped. Maybe he will, or maybe his lack of footspeed will always hinder him just enough to expose him too often as a top pairing defencemen. Either way, he hasn't regressed. He just hasn't grown into his role this season, and it seems to be more glaring by the month.


As for Treliving - I don't think he deserves to be fired. I don't think he deserves to be retained.


I have no idea what this mess of a team is. It seemed to be really good. I think this team misses Brodie and his ability to transition, but even being possibly the biggest Brodie fan on this board (assuming BigBrodieFan is gone!), this only scratches the surface on what ails the Flames.


I don't know what stinks, but something stinks fierce. Maybe it is the culture. Maybe the mix. Maybe injuries regressed certain key players. Maybe apathy. I have no idea. I see a dead team. They play with effort mostly, but they play like losers now, which I don't know how to exactly explain to make you understand that statement. They aren't losers because they are losing, or because I am suddenly immature and mad at them. They are simply going out there and expecting to lose, but put in a full effort (mostly, IMO). It just seems like they walk into the game and expect to lose. Maybe it is just me.


So does Treliving really deserve to get fired? I don't know. I didn't think this team on paper was that bad. I didn't think it was a contender. Aside from catching lightning in a bottle, I didn't expect this team to make it to the Finals, for starters. I did view this team as 'comfortably in the playoffs' team, and felt that they should be turning that corner into a consistent playoff team.


Somehow the bottom fell out, and the Flames are free-falling into rebuild status. Not convinced a retool will really work - see a retool as a bit of an asset devaluation (death by 1000 cuts) until a team is forced to rebuild, but there are plenty of teams that have done retools very well. Either way, pretty sure that everyone here is going to be expecting some rather large changes this off-season.


For now, I would just trade the upcoming UFAs until the trade deadline. This team is tanking just fine right now as it is built. Make the changes in the off-season unless there are deals that are too good to pass up. I would just be scared that a bunch of players from the farm would come in here, breathe-in too much excitement and start helping this team win when it counts the least.

There are no other options

Is it a problem with this organization that there is too much sympathy and not enough accountability?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I agree with most of the second half of your post

I’m a fan and the Flames pay me nothing. But something happened around all star break 2019.

Brad makes the big money to figure out what that is. He hasn’t.

Doesn’t matter if what he thinks is understandable, it matters if it works

So if Treliving hasn’t been able to figure it out, why would someone else be able to? I know it may be difficult for some to acknowledge this, but Treliving’s not dumb.

He knows more than probably anyone about what’s going on with this team. Someone else comes in, you’re starting over. I can’t imagine a scenario where Treliving doesn’t know exactly what he can get for JG, or SM, or anyone else, really.

[Manhattanboy]

If Tre guts the roster what will the return look like?

I fear the franchise is going to miss the playoffs for years to come.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

If Tre guts the roster what will the return look like?

I fear the franchise is going to miss the playoffs for years to come.

I'm okay if the franchise misses playoffs if there is hope or light at the end of the tunnel. As of right now, this is pure darkness and seems like we're still free falling into the abyss. It feels awful.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Curious you point to Vegas, who’s their No1C?

Is ROR an elite 1C? Was he considered that before he won the cup?

Vegas’ is so deep in every other forward position, on defense and in goal, that they can compensated for having average centermen. I also think their style of play saves them; they’re extremely fast, they check hard for their chances, they track back fast to negate scoring chances against and they have that relentless quality I like. Not a ton of ego, they just put the work boots on every game, play as a team and smother their opponent.

I don’t know if they can win it all without an elite #1 center. They certainly were soundly beaten in the Washington series by Kuznetsov and Backstrom. But who knows, maybe they’ll be the first team to do it since the 2004 lockout.


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[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TOfan

So if Treliving hasn’t been able to figure it out, why would someone else be able to? I know it may be difficult for some to acknowledge this, but Treliving’s not dumb.

He knows more than probably anyone about what’s going on with this team. Someone else comes in, you’re starting over. I can’t imagine a scenario where Treliving doesn’t know exactly what he can get for JG, or SM, or anyone else, really.

Haha. Really?

Maybe he is a #### leader. Maybe he fails to set a culture of accountability

Disprove that hypothesis

We can start there

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I’ll also add Treliving has shown he has the balls to make major moves. Did you see either Hamilton trade coming, or at least as it turned out?

Well, who says you even need to make the big move at all? I mean yes, it’s entertaining, but look at Winnipeg, up until the Dubois move they stayed the course and were very patient. They draft extremely well, build everything in house and have built an extremely strong and very young core. They’re on there way back to top of their division and they’ll be good for a while.

Personally, I would take back that Hamonic or Hamilton or Elliott trade in a heart beat. Tod Button’s scouting staff were on a roll in 2015 and 2016 and I’m sure they would’ve picked up some more good ones and fill the holes currently in the line up.


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[dino7c]

Its more complicated than

Win=GM good
Lose=GM bad

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Its more complicated than

Win=GM good
Lose=GM bad

You are right, the Flames have a ####ty GM and it doesn't matter how many more games they win or lose. Horrible GM.