10-18-2020, 10:28 AM
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#1
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cape Breton Island
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Nova Scotia lobster dispute
Discuss.
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10-18-2020, 10:34 AM
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#2
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Franchise Player
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Is it surprising that different rules for different people eventually caused issues?
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10-18-2020, 10:38 AM
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#3
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weitz
Is it surprising that different rules for different people eventually caused issues?
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Really this is just a failure of the RCMP to enforce the law.
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10-18-2020, 10:40 AM
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#4
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Fernando Valley
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Maybe we should defund the RCMP. They seem largely useless these days.
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10-18-2020, 10:47 AM
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#5
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Norm!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG
Really this is just a failure of the RCMP to enforce the law.
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Its not that simple.
The government has failed to listen to either side on this. In terms of the non-indigenous fisherman, they were treated like a cold calling sales person by Bill Blair on the safety side and the Fisheries minister in terms of how the licenses are distributed, concerns over out of season fishing, and commercial license issuing licenses and concerns around conservation of the Fishing grounds.
This has been building for a long time, and its more then just law enforcement, and now the whole thing has spiraled out of control.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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10-18-2020, 10:50 AM
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#6
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Ben
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: God's Country (aka Cape Breton Island)
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What's there to discuss?
RCMP need to properly staff the detachment and restore order.
Treaty of 1752 was upheld by the Supreme Court in R v Marshall.
The Mi'kmaq have a right to fish for a moderate living.
Full stop.
Even if the Mi'kmaq weren't allowed to fish (which again, they are) its still illegal to assault people, burn cars & buildings and destroy property.
The fact that the RCMP went this long understaffing the detachment, in turn not enforcing the peace, is unacceptable.
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10-18-2020, 10:51 AM
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#7
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
Its not that simple.
The government has failed to listen to either side on this. In terms of the non-indigenous fisherman, they were treated like a cold calling sales person by Bill Blair on the safety side and the Fisheries minister in terms of how the licenses are distributed, concerns over out of season fishing, and commercial license issuing licenses and concerns around conservation of the Fishing grounds.
This has been building for a long time, and its more then just law enforcement, and now the whole thing has spiraled out of control.
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Fully agree that many factors have led to the current crisis. But what is happening right now is a failure to assert control. This isn’t an uncontrollable mob right now.
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10-18-2020, 10:53 AM
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#8
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Fearmongerer
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG
Really this is just a failure of the RCMP to enforce the law.
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It also falls on the feds though. The whole Trudeau administration way of doing things that are hard is to just do nothing. Bernadette Jordan is just playing her role like instructed.
Different laws for different people doing the same thing is absurd and there is no way this doesn't turn into what it has, when there is literally a department and a minister in place to change things, rule on them and prevent all this.
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10-18-2020, 10:57 AM
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#9
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Ben
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: God's Country (aka Cape Breton Island)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
Its not that simple.
The government has failed to listen to either side on this. In terms of the non-indigenous fisherman, they were treated like a cold calling sales person by Bill Blair on the safety side and the Fisheries minister in terms of how the licenses are distributed, concerns over out of season fishing, and commercial license issuing licenses and concerns around conservation of the Fishing grounds.
This has been building for a long time, and its more then just law enforcement, and now the whole thing has spiraled out of control.
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Open and clear communication solves a lot of problems.
I can't speak to lobbying done before, but the issue was settled by the Supreme Court.
Alas, we Nova Scotians don't like to ever admit that. (This is a touchy subject for me as we just had our municipal election yesterday with lots of people crying foul over an issue that was fully litigated).
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10-18-2020, 11:05 AM
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#10
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Norm!
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From what I understand even the supreme court has ruled that conservation takes priority. There is going to be resentment over one rule for one group and a different one for another group, especially when it comes to off season fishing.
Issuing commercial licenses to fishing companies who then distribute licenses was never the intention of the Supreme Court ruling over Modest Living which was defined on an individual basis.
The RCMP has been a failure on so many fronts, I think its time to gut the leadership of that force. They've failed on every front over the last 6 years, and they're playing politics.
Letting the PMO's office dictate their investigations, their outright failure on the Rail Blockades, and this.
The RCMP has become useless and a waste of money, they don't seem to want to enforce the law.
The government tried to ignore the problem even though they were warned that this was a situation that could explode long ago by both sides.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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10-18-2020, 11:32 AM
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#11
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Norm!
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More on the issue from the perspective of the NS Premiere and wanting a proper definition of Moderate Living.
https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/n-s-call...r&_gsc=A4QLegX
They really do need to get both sides to the table on this, and ignoring it has made it so much worse.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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10-18-2020, 11:38 AM
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#12
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First Line Centre
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My simple mind says the order of events for the Federal Government should be:
1. Restore order
2. Temporarily close the season to everyone, including the indigenous and non-indigenous parties
3. Establish a council consisting of the main combatants, and outline terms of reference.
4. If there is no resolution of the conflict, then proceed to litigation, and eventually the Supreme Court. It seems to me that the past SC ruling is far too ambiguous
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10-18-2020, 11:55 AM
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#13
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Ben
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: God's Country (aka Cape Breton Island)
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You can't cry conservation on whim.
Dalhousie University issued a statement that the indigenous fishery doesn't harm conservation.
This isn't a conservation issue. It's a racial one. If it were a conservation issue then the fishers would be trying foul of Clearwater.
Restore order. Respect the rules. Uphold treaty rights.
I'm all for defining a moderate living. Since the number of traps per Mi'kmaq fisher is lower than that of a federal licensee (I believe its about 1/5 the traps but in fairness I'm going on my fuzzy memory here) then their treaty rights should be respected as it currently is until an agreement on the definition of "moderate" is determined.
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Last edited by Maritime Q-Scout; 10-18-2020 at 11:59 AM.
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10-18-2020, 12:03 PM
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#14
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cowtown
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Things are really boiling over. Someone butter get control of this situation bisque-for it escalates. Some really shellfish acts being committed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilboimcdavid
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Last edited by PaperBagger'14; 10-18-2020 at 12:19 PM.
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10-18-2020, 12:16 PM
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#15
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14
Things are really boiling over. Someone butter get control of this situation bisque-for is escalates. Some really shellfish acts being committed.
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I'll allow it.
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10-18-2020, 12:18 PM
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#16
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Uzbekistan
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The Feds have had over 20 years to define what "moderate livelihood" means as per the Supreme Court's Marshall decision.
Successive federal governments decided to stick their head in the sand and ignore the issue.
Eventually, First Nations got tired of waiting, while their members generally lived in poverty.
Commercial fisherman are upset because they feel that First Nations fishers are depleteing the fishing stocks. These fisheries are the only economic option for a good income in these remote, small towns.
Where does the blame lie in this mess? It has to be the federal government. Their inaction has pitted sides against each other.
Good luck fixing this mess.
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10-18-2020, 12:21 PM
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#17
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout
You can't cry conservation on whim.
Dalhousie University issued a statement that the indigenous fishery doesn't harm conservation.
This isn't a conservation issue. It's a racial one. If it were a conservation issue then the fishers would be trying foul of Clearwater.
Restore order. Respect the rules. Uphold treaty rights.
I'm all for defining a moderate living. Since the number of traps per Mi'kmaq fisher is lower than that of a federal licensee (I believe its about 1/5 the traps but in fairness I'm going on my fuzzy memory here) then their treaty rights should be respected as it currently is until an agreement on the definition of "moderate" is determined.
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Did the lady from Dalhousie who has been quoted around actually comment on conservation? All I saw was amount of traps in relation to commercial fisheries.
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10-18-2020, 12:24 PM
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#18
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny199r
The Feds have had over 20 years to define what "moderate livelihood" means as per the Supreme Court's Marshall decision.
Successive federal governments decided to stick their head in the sand and ignore the issue.
Eventually, First Nations got tired of waiting, while their members generally lived in poverty.
Commercial fisherman are upset because they feel that First Nations fishers are depleteing the fishing stocks. These fisheries are the only economic option for a good income in these remote, small towns.
Where does the blame lie in this mess? It has to be the federal government. Their inaction has pitted sides against each other.
Good luck fixing this mess.
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This has been some fine examples of true Leadership and respect for the Rule of Law.
The Federal Government and the RCMP are really showing all out class lately.
I know 'Defund the Police' doesnt mean what it sounds like it means, but at this point we may as well geuinely defund the RCMP. Doesnt seem like we're getting our money's worth.
I mean, if all we're expecting is guys with guns sitting on lawn-chairs watching a train-wreck happen I know guys who will do that for free Pizza and Beer.
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
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10-18-2020, 12:28 PM
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#19
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transplant99
It also falls on the feds though. The whole Trudeau administration way of doing things that are hard is to just do nothing. Bernadette Jordan is just playing her role like instructed.
Different laws for different people doing the same thing is absurd and there is no way this doesn't turn into what it has, when there is literally a department and a minister in place to change things, rule on them and prevent all this.
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These aren't different laws for the different people.
It’s just an incorrect way of looking at the treaties.
The government in exchange for land made long term deals with certain people.
The entire foundation of our economy is based on binding contracts enforced by government. The government can’t just unilaterally break the treaties. And the people that benefited from the treaties for hundreds of years don’t get now say that it’s not fair. The government of Canada made a deal and the government of Canada needs to live up to their end of the bargain.
Moderate living needs to be defined by the government and litigated if required. Then the rest of the fishery needs to be sized for sustainability. The very land that these towns exist on is predicated on this treaty existing.
Last edited by GGG; 10-18-2020 at 02:19 PM.
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10-18-2020, 01:33 PM
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#20
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Shanghai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weitz
Did the lady from Dalhousie who has been quoted around actually comment on conservation? All I saw was amount of traps in relation to commercial fisheries.
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https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5734030
Quote:
A university professor who studies fisheries management says the Mi'kmaw fishery in southwest Nova Scotia won't harm lobster stocks — as commercial fishermen have argued — given its small scale.
Megan Bailey is an associate professor and Canada Research Chair in integrated ocean and coastal governance at Dalhousie University in Halifax.
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I also thought this was an interesting read to learn about the situation.
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/op...-think-509373/
Quote:
Currently, Mi’kmaw lobster livelihood fishers are limited through the Marshall decision to acquire only a moderate livelihood. To accommodate that limit, Mi’kmaw fishers/communities set trap limits that are less than the smallest commercial fishery possible (i.e., 75 traps) with even fewer Mi’kmaw lobster harvesters fishing the maximum allotment.
Imagine if each commercial lobster licence holder — there are over 3,000 inshore lobster licences in the Maritimes alone — with the equivalent of over 820,725 traps shared access by reducing their maximum trap allocation by one per cent. This would translate to a reduction of 2.5 to four traps for each lobster licence holder annually. Overall, this would provide access equivalent to 8,207-plus traps for a Mi’kmaq livelihood fishery in the Maritimes region of Nova Scotia.
Given that the livelihood fishery is negligible in comparison to the commercial lobster fishery, this may likely suffice in the interim for the Mi’kmaw First Nations in Nova Scotia engaged in livelihood lobster fishing. Whatever trap allocation is not used by either the Mi’kmaw livelihood fishers or their commercial counterparts could be considered their contribution to sustainability.
Isn’t it worth each commercial licence holder exploring giving up 2.5 to four traps annually in return for building better relations, avoiding conflict, and abiding by the multiple decisions of the courts?
If those are not good enough reasons, and the fear in the industry is that the Mi’kmaw livelihood fishers are indeed a threat to the resource, isn’t giving up 2.5 to four traps worth protecting your livelihood?
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