of these- Naslund, Yashin, Nolan, Bondra, Leclair all ended up with less than 900 points- I don't think any of them have enough intangibles to make up that difference (although Naslund at peak was a great player)
of these I imagine we will eventually see several (all possibly not all) of Elias, Tkachuk, Kovalev, go in (in roughly that order)...Weight. less sure
2 other names from the era to ponder: Brindamour, Turgeon (the latter doesn't have alot going for him other than alot of points!)
I think that Fleury benefits a lot from playing in a very offensive era, particularly at the start of his career when scoring was at an all time high due to expansion. In the 1992-93 season there were something like 21 players who scored 100 points or more.
I do think thaf Fleury was a special player, I just happen to think that he was never really thought of as the best player in the league. He should likely be in the Hall of Fame, but I don't think that he is the slam dunk case that many here make him out to be. The truth is that he gets in his own way more often than not and while I can sympathize with his addiction issues his personality issues do detract from his case.
I think that Fleury benefits a lot from playing in a very offensive era, particularly at the start of his career when scoring was at an all time high due to expansion. In the 1992-93 season there were something like 21 players who scored 100 points or more.
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well sure,but so do (more or less) everyone on the list as they were the ones selected as his contemporaries (I suppose by the time you get to Naslund you are getting a bit younger)
at the end of the day I guess there are still stats that 'matter' like 1000 points- they don't mean automatic induction (as you point out due to dilution there are lots of guys from certain eras that hit the bar that aren't HOFers) and on the other hand there will be players with other intangibles (or in rare instances injury shortened careers) who don't get there...but if you are mostly an offensive player (Yashin say , or Bondra or..) and you played at more or less the time you are referring to- I think there will be an expectation
in part when I talk about who I'm predicting with make the Hall it has little to do with who I think SHOULD make the Hall , let alone the argument about whether the bar is set at the right place
I agree with your contention he was never thought of as the 'best player in the league' but 2 Hart top 5 finishes suggests I think (For a brief window at least) he was viewed in the top half of the 2nd tier
There's 18 selection members and each get to nominate one person and then there's a vote. You need 14 votes to get in (there's run-off ballots, too) and each member can vote for up to four players.
I found it interesting that Duhatschek voted for Iginla, Vernon, Doug Wilson and Kevin Lowe. So he didn't even vote for Fleury (Fleury had one vote and it was Cruickshank).
It makes you wonder about his snubs all these years. I would have thought that Duhatschek, who was on the selection committee for 15 years, would have been a Fleury advocate but clearly not. Lanny McDonald is in there now and that could be another person keeping Fleury out of it when you'd actually hope for the opposite.
well sure,but so do (more or less) everyone on the list as they were the ones selected as his contemporaries (I suppose by the time you get to Naslund you are getting a bit younger)
at the end of the day I guess there are still stats that 'matter' like 1000 points- they don't mean automatic induction (as you point out due to dilution there are lots of guys from certain eras that hit the bar that aren't HOFers) and on the other hand there will be players with other intangibles (or in rare instances injury shortened careers) who don't get there...but if you are mostly an offensive player (Yashin say , or Bondra or..) and you played at more or less the time you are referring to- I think there will be an expectation
in part when I talk about who I'm predicting with make the Hall it has little to do with who I think SHOULD make the Hall , let alone the argument about whether the bar is set at the right place
I agree with your contention he was never thought of as the 'best player in the league' but 2 Hart top 5 finishes suggests I think (For a brief window at least) he was viewed in the top half of the 2nd tier
Looking at his top 5 finishes makes it obvious that he wasn't really in the discussion for the Hart. He received 5 third place votes in 1990-91, in 1994-95 he had received 1 second place vote and 4 third place votes.
He was near the top end of the second tier of NHL players, but the question is whether that is good enough for the HHOF selection committee to ignore the more controversial aspects of his life.
Lanny is Chairman of the HOF, he is not listed as being on the selection committee.
Considering how secret the whole process is I doubt he is even consulted (grounds for removal from the committee) or in the room for the selections. He just gets to notify inductees.
Calgary boy John Davidson is the Chair of the committee.
Others who should be Fleury backers (or blockers) are:
- Bobby Clarke
- Luc Robitaille
- Jari Kurri
- BRIAN BURKE
The rest likely don't have strong feelings one way or another.
What specifically about the off-ice stuff comes into play for you?
For me, the only thing that should matter are his rather unflattering comments about the organization. For me, that's a legit reason for the organization to not honour him. I just don't think you can use the man's demons against him. His acerbic and outspoken nature, unfortunately, are a reason. In the end, Theo will need a "come to jesus" moment with the team before we see his jersey rise up.
He should be in the hall 100% though.
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What specifically about the off-ice stuff comes into play for you?
I've shrugged off a lot of what Fleury has said and done over the years because he was my favorite player growing up. However, his tantrum after getting cut in 2009, and specifically his shot at all-around great human being Craig Conroy, really bit into his reputation in my eyes.
And while I think there needs to be divide between on-ice play and off-ice antics, Fleury hasn't exactly endeared himself to me through his media and social media presence in the past decade.
If he's rubbed a fan the wrong way I can certainly understand how he comes off in the generalized hockey community.
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However, his tantrum after getting cut in 2009, and specifically his shot at all-around great human being Craig Conroy, really bit into his reputation in my eyes.
This was the final nail in the coffin for having the Flames retire his jersey. I dont see it ever happening now.
I think the "Calgary Flames All Time Roster - #2 Right Wing" thread says everything about why #14 should be in the rafters. If #9 is, then so should #14. An unbiased vote with Fleury vs McDonald as the better player and Fleury is taking the vote by a landslide.
This was the final nail in the coffin for having the Flames retire his jersey. I dont see it ever happening now.
This is a pretty lame reason to not retire a fan favorite and former franchise scoring leader. I like that Fleury had that competitive nature, that he felt he was better than Conroy (and he's entitled to that opinion). I wish more Flames players today had that fire.
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This was the final nail in the coffin for having the Flames retire his jersey. I dont see it ever happening now.
While he should not have taken any shot at Conroy he was not wrong about the rest. The team was not going to win a Cup, the fans wanted to see that last year, he put up points in the pre-season, and they cut him while keeping other duds. It was a bs move by the organization and a total mistake for many reasons.
I think the HOF is a long shot for Fleury, but there's no reason why his jersey shouldn't be retired by the Flames. I think both sides should bury the hatchet (if there's still any bad blood between them), and get that jersey up to the rafters where it belongs.
While he should not have taken any shot at Conroy he was not wrong about the rest. The team was not going to win a Cup, the fans wanted to see that last year, he put up points in the pre-season, and they cut him while keeping other duds. It was a bs move by the organization and a total mistake for many reasons.
They are running a hockey club and not a charity team. Fleury was much too slow for the team and frankly would have been a distraction as evidenced by his comments. Putting up points in meaningless hockey games doesn't mean anything, it is about how someone looks on the ice, look at preseason scoring champion Ty Rattie.
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I think the "Calgary Flames All Time Roster - #2 Right Wing" thread says everything about why #14 should be in the rafters. If #9 is, then so should #14. An unbiased vote with Fleury vs McDonald as the better player and Fleury is taking the vote by a landslide.
Only my opinion, but I disagree.
If we started a list of all time greats that should have their jersey retired, and then removed those selected and polled again I would guess Lanny would go before Fleury every time.
Best #2RW is a different poll than a poll asking what player should have his jersey retired.
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If we started a list of all time greats that should have their jersey retired, and then removed those selected and polled again I would guess Lanny would go before Fleury every time.
Best #2RW is a different poll than a poll asking what player should have his jersey retired.
Why though? Shouldn't we want the best players to be in the rafters?
I don't get why people make a jersey retirement a personality thing. As a fan I think it's embarrassing that the best players are not in the rafters.
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