Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

This narrative that Neal had a chance of rebounding was a fantasy that some of you indulged in. He was gifted ice time for an antire year that he did nothing to earn! Sorry you don’t get years to prove you can still play in the nhl. If you don’t show a glimmer of nhl ability in an entire calendar year, show zero chemistry on any line you play on you don’t get any more chances. If your play is so bad the coach scratches you in game 5 of the playoffs you ain’t coming back.

I’ve seen this sentiment a lot, “Neal has a better chance of rebounding”. Maybe with the Oilers, but he sure as hell wasnt getting that chance with us. He didn’t deserve that chance, he wasn’t going to get it and there’s no reason to think he would rebound imo. As Treliving said he was not a fit at all.

I often take the optimistic viewpoint. Wanna know my optimism level that Neal might rebound with us? Non-existent. Sorry but all of you who bought into the Neal could rebound with the Flames bought into a fantasy.

Yeah, to me Neal looked absolutely done as a hockey player last year.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

This narrative that Neal had a chance of rebounding was a fantasy that some of you indulged in. He was gifted ice time for an antire year that he did nothing to earn! Sorry you don’t get years to prove you can still play in the nhl. If you don’t show a glimmer of nhl ability in an entire calendar year, show zero chemistry on any line you play on you don’t get any more chances. If your play is so bad the coach scratches you in game 5 of the playoffs you ain’t coming back.

I’ve seen this sentiment a lot, “Neal has a better chance of rebounding”. Maybe with the Oilers, but he sure as hell wasnt getting that chance with us. He didn’t deserve that chance, he wasn’t going to get it and there’s no reason to think he would rebound imo. As Treliving said he was not a fit at all.

I often take the optimistic viewpoint. Wanna know my optimism level that Neal might rebound with us? Non-existent. Sorry but all of you who bought into the Neal could rebound with the Flames bought into a fantasy.

You have a crystal ball that says all the hard work he's supposedly putting in this off-season will not pay off in a rebound year? I get that some of you have decided to put a positive spin on this trade and that's fine but I don't know how you can take some posters to task for not liking this trade and then post something like this. Sorry but I'm not buying your forecast. I feel Neal has a much better chance of rebounding and I'm not alone because even Treliving himself set an over/under 21 goals for him with the trade condition he negotiated. Nobody is saying Neal is going to turn into a 40 goal scorer but it's very plausible he returns to his 20 goal scoring ways next season which is supposedly what Treliving thought he was getting when he signed the player a year ago.

[Toonage]

All of the effort he has put in this off season will make him a healthier 32 year old. But his training isn't done in a vacuum. All the 20 year olds are faster, stronger and better too.

He is what he is at this point.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Toonage

All of the effort he has put in this off season will make him a healthier 32 year old. But his training isn't done in a vacuum. All the 20 year olds are faster, stronger and better too.

He is what he is at this point.

Plus Roberts' camp is about fitness IIRC. It's not about skills or skating.

Also, Roberts' camp has become a thing to do for Toronto area players. It has evolved from the early days where he was working with a couple players. So there's now a real mix of results after those camps, all depending on the player.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You have a crystal ball that says all the hard work he's supposedly putting in this off-season will not pay off in a rebound year? I get that some of you have decided to put a positive spin on this trade and that's fine but I don't know how you can take some posters to task for not liking this trade and then post something like this. Sorry but I'm not buying your forecast. I feel Neal has a much better chance of rebounding and I'm not alone because even Treliving himself set an over/under 21 goals for him with the trade condition he negotiated. Nobody is saying Neal is going to turn into a 40 goal scorer but it's very plausible he returns to his 20 goal scoring ways next season which is supposedly what Treliving thought he was getting when he signed the player a year ago.

Not sure you really read my post carefully. I made a key distinction that Neal was never going to get the opportunity to rebound with us because he had already proven to not be a fit in any way.

I did note that Neal could rebound with the Oilers. My point was that he would never get that opportunity to rebound with us because he did not earn it and had zero fit in our lineup. Neal can rebound but it was never going to be with us. My point was that fans who still wanted to give him another chance misread the situation, he was never going to get that chance and didn’t deserve another chance.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Plus Roberts' camp is about fitness IIRC. It's not about skills or skating.

Also, Roberts' camp has become a thing to do for Toronto area players. It has evolved from the early days where he was working with a couple players. So there's now a real mix of results after those camps, all depending on the player.

Exactly.

I will add that I think Gary Roberts is partially relying on his own career and longevity as promotion for his training business. So there is the workouts, the nutrition, etc. that he can point to as saying is a differentiator in his career, allowing him to play at a high level for a long time.

The one thing missing as I believe you infer is the individual. Gary Roberts was intense. He had a ton of compete, a fire inside that was conspicuously absent from James Neal.

Gary Roberts can tell you what to eat and what exercises to do, but if you bring James Neal’s give a crap level to the rink, what does it matter?

[Vinny01]

I am typically a glass half full guy so i was looking at the positives of this deal the next day. Outside of the extremely high cap hit for the role on the team Lucic is a much better fit for the roster than Neal. I didn’t really see Neal all of a sudden looking good with either of the top 2 lines. I hope Treliving still addresses the need for a 2nd line RW this summer.

Lucic will fit on a line with Ryan or Janko and if he hits, fights, intimidates it will be more than Neal brought last year.

[Enoch Root]

There was a time when Roberts was doing things with player-training that was somewhat above the curve. But now, every player is doing very high level training every summer.

Neal clearly had a playoff hangover last year, and wasn't in the shape he needed to be for the season. So there is plenty of reason to think that, with refocused training, he will be back in better shape this year. And that can only help his game.

However, that doesn't change who he is. His game will need a whole lot more than a few extra sit-ups before he re-establishes himself as a legitimate top 6 forward in this league.

[Trailer Fire]

I was heading out camping when I got the news, so I had time over the weekend to mull it over, while I had no service.

I instantly hated the trade. Neal might rebound this year. Lucic is slow and useless and a bit dim. I prefer Neal's buyout-able contract over Lucic's ironclad sarcophagus. Without being able to do any research, or look anything up, I could only use my imagination. Neal liked to float on the back check, and didn't play overly aggressive in the dirty spots on the ice. He liked being set up for the easy play. Lucic, on the other hand, is still capable of some down-and-dirty boardplay, he is still mean and nasty to play against, and, from what I remember olfrom watching a few Edmonton games, is still willing any capable to play in his own zone.

Lucic might not be the best for his pricetag, and he might not make he brightest plays in the world, but it looked to me like Milan still cares about playing, no matter what position he is put in the ice. Neal doesn't seem to care, and doesn't want to earn his spot. To me, the trade us addition by subtraction. It makes us harder to play against, and it makes Neal a potential scoring threat as he might play with McDavid. It's a win for both clubs. And with 750k of Me land salary being retained, his bonus already being paid out for the year, and the conditional pick being sent out way, it's even more of a bonus. I would have made peace with a 1 for 1 trade, nevermind the extras.

Plus, if Looch can find a way to fit with Bennett and maybe Mangiapane, I think that line could give teams a real headache.

[DuffMan]

Could a Lucic + Tkachuk line provide some entertainment value?

[Monahammer]

Neal's attitude issues didn't just randomly crop up after he was traded- that would be forgetting the various reports throughout the season about how unhappy he was with his role (including potentially having removed his gear from the locker room during his "injury" break... Dubious injury...) and then being healthy scratched in the playoffs. I think the 'leadership' pieces you saw being pushed by the flames reporting group were done intentionally- when it was clear his production wasn't going to come this season, we saw lots of pieces about his leadership, his intangibles, how he was "saving himself" for the playoffs when the time is right.
Either these were pushed by management who was trying to justify the bad signing, or they were the lies that Neal was telling everyone to try and justify his own behavior.
When everything he said about turning it on later in the season came up empty, I think management had little choice but to look at moving him.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Neal's attitude issues didn't just randomly crop up after he was traded- that would be forgetting the various reports throughout the season about how unhappy he was with his role (including potentially having removed his gear from the locker room during his "injury" break... Dubious injury...)

I totally forgot about that! How he just vanished for a few weeks. Took his stuff, wasn't training with the team. I remember now Wills talking about that.

Signs were there.

Also, that BS line about how he couldn't find the right stick after the ones he used were no longer made? Good times.

[Flash Walken]

I didn't think Fitness was an issue for neal at all last year. Maybe I'm an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about, but he didn't look like he struggled to get around the ice due to fitness, he looked like he struggled to get around the ice because he didn't know where the puck was going to end up and spent most of his shifts floating around or standing still.

Bobbling pucks on open nets, flubbing clear looks and being unable to complete passes with any consistency were his problems.

His fitness looked just fine when he was flying the zone or heading to the bench without having broken a sweat.

Spoiler!

Link

That's not the softest pass in the world but he's supposed to be a skill guy. His hands are basically his entire game. They look like they're gone.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Could a Lucic + Tkachuk line provide some entertainment value?

I considered the same at a point over the weekend that Lucic could find his way on the Backlund line. He has been a strong defensive and possession forward for many years and while he and Tkachuk lack speed Backlund brings plenty and speed up the middle is more important than the wings.

Tkachuk gets involved in after whistle stuff all the time and having Lucic there to join in the scrums is a way to keep him physically engaged.

It is not ideal but I could see potential there.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Toonage

I totally forgot about that! How he just vanished for a few weeks. Took his stuff, wasn't training with the team. I remember now Wills talking about that.

Signs were there.

Also, that BS line about how he couldn't find the right stick after the ones he used were no longer made? Good times.

Nah, perfectly normal to completely separate yourself from the team for weeks in the middle of the season.

Fortunately we had Calgary media personalities asking the tough questions about it.

[Firebot]

2015-16 St. Louis Blues NHL 82 18 21 39 62 2 20 8 5 13 26
2016-17 Calgary Flames NHL 74 13 12 25 31 -11 4 0 2 2 0
2017-18 Calgary Flames NHL 76 6 16 22 53 -7 -- -- -- -- --
2018-19 Florida Panthers NHL 75 12 9 21 47 -6 -- -- -- -- --


2017-18 Vegas Golden Knights NHL 71 25 19 44 24 -11 20 6 5 11 12
2018-19 Calgary Flames NHL 63 7 12 19 28 -5 4 0 0 0 0

James Neal at 31 was much worse than Troy Brouwer at 31, yet constantly people say he will rebound.

Food for thought at the end of 2017's season. We certainly wished for Brouwer to rebound. We all know what happened to Brouwer's game after.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showth...rouwer+rebound

Lucic is certainly even less likely to rebound, but he can still bash someone's head in and be a presence and do things for the team. A scorer that doesn't score...is useless. I still chuckle at the 'saving himself' in the playoffs that some here were hoping to believe.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Yeah, to me Neal looked absolutely done as a hockey player last year.

He was damn unlucky too ... and bad luck early meant he couldn't stick with top players because he was hurting them defensively. So he moves down the roster and plays with the third line killing them as a unit in their own zone and also hammering his chances of rebounding because he wasn't getting the looks.

Perfect storm really.

And as some have pointed out it would have been tough this year. I think a bounce back to double digits was possible from better fortune, but his days of 20 in Calgary looked over.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Show me where I said that. There’s reason to believe that both players may or may not improve. But statements like “this is already a loss” before either player has hit the ice is chicken little at its finest.

This is already a loss because Lucic will never be a player worth a 5.25 million dollar contract.

Neal won't be either, but at least there's a chance he could be traded away at some point without taking 5.25x4 locked back.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Am I the only one who doesn't care at all about what Neal does in Edmonton?

Nothing he does for that terrible team will change how poor a fit he was here. We could -- and did -- spitballi ad nauseum about line combos and possible sources of motivation, but his totally unconvincing performance last year will not be difficult to improve upon. All Lucic has to do is to be a presence out there. Neal was never a presence.

If Lucic can light a fire under this team with huge hits (and remember, he tied his career-high in them last year), then I really couldn't care less about how many tap-ins Neal gets playing with McDavid.

You will care come the season, because you're going to hear about it. From Oiler fans, the Edmonton media, the Edmonton fan bloggers, John Shannon, Ron MacLean, etc ...

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I didn't think Fitness was an issue for neal at all last year. Maybe I'm an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about, but he didn't look like he struggled to get around the ice due to fitness, he looked like he struggled to get around the ice because he didn't know where the puck was going to end up and spent most of his shifts floating around or standing still.

Bobbling pucks on open nets, flubbing clear looks and being unable to complete passes with any consistency were his problems.

His fitness looked just fine when he was flying the zone or heading to the bench without having broken a sweat.

Spoiler!

Link

That's not the softest pass in the world but he's supposed to be a skill guy. His hands are basically his entire game. They look like they're gone.

I think it was fitness but with a brain that was well aware of the issues.

When I play hockey if I'm not feeling it I know that rounding off a forecheck and not going in hard leaves me a better chance to do something "fun" for the next 30 seconds.

He played like that.

Knew he couldn't expend too much energy on finishing checks and chasing down pucks because he'd be gassed.