Attendance woes at the dome?!

[RM14]

Originally Posted by ST20

For the life of me, I cannot understand how there is a strong presence of Ottawa fans at flames games. So many visiting team fans seems to be more vocal and noticeable than flames fans.

To use Toronto as an example, Leafs fans attending the Leafs once a year in Calgary are all together louder than all the Leafs fans at their own home games. Visitor fans get much more pumped up. Flames Fans had a real good atmosphere going in Denver 2 weeks ago, and being there as a Flames fan felt more exiting than going to the Dome as a Flames fan.

[ST20]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

What I think is the most interesting about these conversations is how the narrative switches to the numbers pointing to problems for the Flames. Even if you buy the average attendance being at 94% for this year, why do people think the Flames would panic about this. Sure I get it, they want that extra 6% of people in, which means very real money and margin to them. But in all reality, 94% in this city right now, where the economy hasn't fully re-bounded, and the team has been very average (at best the past couple of seasons) is pretty good draw. Not too many NHL markets would draw 94% attendance, with premium priced tickets, a crappy building, tough economy and a mediocre team. So I'm not sure what the critique of the team or the fan base is with these stats.

Which then leads me to my next point. How people then immediately jump to the Flames need to reduce ticket prices or concession prices. That assumes the Flames (the business) goal is 100% attendance. The goal is make the most money. I'd strongly guess that the Flames would have the lower the prices substantially to hit 100% attendance very night. I'm also guessing they are better off continuing to charge what they charge, and get the building ~95% full. Then if the economy picks up even more, the team gets more competitive, or both, they benefit even more with 100% attendance at full pop.

You make a good point but I think it is very short sighted to look only at maximizing ticket revenue. I know that the NHL is a gate driven sport but there are other ways to maximize revenue. If you look at other teams popular teams with true staying power through up and down times like Canadiens, Leafs, Yankees, Packers, Celtics, Lakers, etc.

These teams (although they already charge very high prices) could charge even higher prices. But the fact that they have full stadiums of loud fans adds to the experience which in turn brings in new fans, better TV revenues, sells more merchandise etc. If you continually gut fans it will eventually deteriorate the most popular teams (see Washington Redskins).

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Why do I feel like the Flames franchise is unraveling before our eyes, given all the things that are happening (arena, declining sales, "Have not" team, on-ice performance, etc....)

It could be a lot worse though. This isn't Ottawa. These problems would be seen as mild in a lot of American markets.

Just need a team that fans could bank on giving a whole crap on 90%> of nights on home ice and I think the issues would resolve themselves naturally.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

It could be a lot worse though. This isn't Ottawa. These problems would be seen as mild in a lot of American markets.

Just need a team that fans could bank on giving a whole crap on 90%> of nights on home ice and I think the issues would resolve themselves naturally.

I miss that 2004 level of support where the Flames just had a blue collar, lovable team that took everyone by surprise. Fan support was off the charts for a couple years afterwards too

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I miss that 2004 level of support where the Flames just had a blue collar, lovable team that took everyone by surprise. Fan support was off the charts for a couple years afterwards too

then for 10 years the Team gouged their most loyal supporters. This year is worse than ever with the Ticketmaster tricks they are pulling. Holding supply till a few days before the game. there were 7 seats in 212 row 15 that magically appeared 2 days before the game. How are these center ice seats not offered as season tickets to a 10+ year season ticket holder as a reward for loyalty?

[Calgary14]

Ticketmaster and their lack of ethics is an entirely different discussion

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Calgary14

Ticketmaster and their lack of ethics is an entirely different discussion

Pretty sure the Flames decide which seats are available to season ticket holders.

[albertGQ]

With three young kids, I am definitely priced out of the market. Sucks because my boys love going to games. Unfortunately I can only take them to Hitmen games or Flames preseason games (heavily discounted).

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The Flames used to charge fans to be on a waiting list. The Hot House.

At one point, it was rumoured to account for upwards of a million dollars in revenue:




NOW, the team is reportedly offering up that they have a couple of thousand unsold tickets. Team's really don't like to have to admit that. Towards the end of the canucks sellout streak, they were doing lots of things that were essentially 'papering' the market to get tickets sold. I remember reading on here that there were thousands of tickets available for the home opener on Game Day.

The team has priced themselves out of the market. It probably happened 2 or 3 years years ago, and I don't think it is all because of the energy price downturn either. Consumers often find themselves well into a product or price cycle before changing their behaviour, but if you don't distract them with a slicker or more glitzy delivery, they'll wise up to it faster.

It is not just an on ice product problem, that's probably one of the lesser issues actually. It's the stagnant product away from the rink and the lack of community engagement from the organization that are the primaries here after direct ticket cost.

I don't dissagree with you, the Flames were doing better a few years back. Waiting list for tickets, all means more money.

You haven't directly called this out, but I don't think dropping the prices brings them back to hot house waiting lists and and overall more profitable picture. I'm not saying that they've for sure optimized their price point model, but I think people immediately jump to if they charged less they'd be doing better. The problem is far more complex than that, with far more factors than price (many of which have been brought up in this thread) influencing why the team isn't sitting with a waiting list right now.

The Flames will have a lot of people looking at this, I highly doubt they've missed the, if we charged just a little less we'd have a waiting list and generating far more profit opportunity at this point. It's a fairly typical consumer reaction for any industry........feeling like the company or the corporation is missing the obvious, if you charged less I and others would buy more and you'd make more money........why is the company so stupid. It's rarely that simple.

And you suggest they've priced themselves out of the market....regardless of industry, hitting 94% capacity, on top of price increases on the tickets and concessions doesn't point at a high level to pricing yourself out of the market........quite the opposite actually.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by ST20

You make a good point but I think it is very short sighted to look only at maximizing ticket revenue. I know that the NHL is a gate driven sport but there are other ways to maximize revenue. If you look at other teams popular teams with true staying power through up and down times like Canadiens, Leafs, Yankees, Packers, Celtics, Lakers, etc.

These teams (although they already charge very high prices) could charge even higher prices. But the fact that they have full stadiums of loud fans adds to the experience which in turn brings in new fans, better TV revenues, sells more merchandise etc. If you continually gut fans it will eventually deteriorate the most popular teams (see Washington Redskins).

All fair, but I don't think my view point is short sighted. I think the business models for NFL and MLB make hard comparisons, and I'm not sure the Yankees play to full building most nights, pretty easy to get a ticket to a Yankees game when you go to New York, but that's not really fair for me to say either given just how large and how many games that team plays.

So I'll focus on the Leafs and the Canadians more. Montreal and Toronto (especially Toronto) have one very key difference that Calgary and almost any other market doesn't have going for them. They aren't subject to a true free market situation like other centers. What I mean by that, is if we were truly allowing NHL hockey supply and demand to dictate NHL strategy, there would be at least 2 other NHL franchises operating in the Toronto area to actually service the demand generated by that hockey loving population. This is what allows them to remain steady on attendance in ups and downs vs. say Calgary..........they are drawing from a fan base and population base that could actually support maybe even a total of 4 teams. This insulates them from what we experience in Calgary and other markets, not better branding, marketing, pricing strategy or otherwise. Running the TML must be the easiest thing in the world.........The biggest hockey market on the planet and to date you've been handed exclusive franchise rights.

If anything the Calgary has proven the Flames don't need to worry about brand damage or long term profitability when it comes to maybe over charging in some peoples mind during a down turn on the ice or off because its been proven the Fans will come back in droves when the team or the economy gets good again.

[1991 Canadian]

Ticket prices are definitely a factor, especially with a weak local economy. I think the Flames and the NHL in general have taken it for granted that there is a guaranteed next generation of fans that can afford the ever increasing cost of being a fan.

A quick google and I found a ticket stub for the 1989 Game 5 game against Montreal in the Stanley Cup finals. Section C (which I believe would be somewhere in the 100s), row 12, seat 18 for $32.50. Adjusted for inflation that is $57.48.

For a regular season game this Saturday against Washington, the Flames are trying to sell a ticket in Section 106. Row 12. Seat 11 for $190.25.

Since Bettman has been the league, it has grown from total revenues of $400 million among 26 teams to $4.54 billion among 31 teams. Adjusted for inflation that works out to:

1993-1994: $27.19 million / team
2017-2018: $146.5 million / team

That revenue increase is entirely paid for by fans and to some extent, taxpayers subsidizing new arenas. The Flames and the NHL have done what ever business should do. They have maximized revenue. But they have may have lost the long term fanbase in the process.

Look around at the NHL and pro sports in general. Calgary isn't a unique situation. I think we have reached peak pro sports revenues, or very close to it across North America. Fans only have so much money to spend on entertainment.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Slava

I don't feel like it's only the Flames, or only Calgary, but the atmosphere is just terrible. There is literally nothing going on for the fans and it's just not worth the inconvenience of going all the way there, paying too much for a beer and then standing in line forever to use a washroom. No singing or chanting (and no..."go flames go" and Harvey banging a drum doesn't cut it), and just no real reason to be there as opposed to being at home or in a pub.

This. Just not worth the hassle on a weekday.

Rush home after to work to get ready and be at the Saddledome by 7.

Then it's too expensive to sit anywhere but in the Greens of the 200's or up in the Press Level so the sight lines aren't as good as what I can get on my TV anyways.

Once you are there the food and drink quality is subpar, and while the happy hour is a nice addition the regular price is still way overpriced and the quality still isn't worth it.

Then to top it all off the team just hasn't been great at home the last couple seasons, and trying to get out of a parking lot to leave the game tacks on an extra annoyance to the whole experience.

I still love going to the games live on the weekends as a social outing but the overall experience just isn't close to being worth it to justify spending extra money to go in person on a Tuesday night when I can watch the game with way more amenities and at a way more affordable cost if I just stay home while only losing what isn't the best Atmosphere.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by dino7c

look who's back

Is there cheese still there or not?

[TheKurgan]

I was at the game last night, first and last game of the season for me. If I take away the absolutely horrible product on the ice last night there are still a number of things that make me not want to return.

Concession prices and value: I swear the Pocket Dogs have gotten 25% smaller. $11 Beers. Pretty much everything is either 25% too small for what you pay, or 25% too expensive.
Washooms: I went halfway through the second period to get a 50/50 ticket and use the washroom - still had to wait in line for 5 min. Washroom also very dated and dirty.
Arena: Absolutely no reason to spend an extra minute at the rink before or after the game. Narrow cavernous hallways, small crowded common areas with barely anything place for groups to socialize.
Before, After and Between period entertainment: nothing before and after the game, area around the dome is dead unless you want to sit in one of the casinos within a few blocks.

anyways, I am in a bad mood so I will end my rant.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by RM14

then for 10 years the Team gouged their most loyal supporters. This year is worse than ever with the Ticketmaster tricks they are pulling. Holding supply till a few days before the game. there were 7 seats in 212 row 15 that magically appeared 2 days before the game. How are these center ice seats not offered as season tickets to a 10+ year season ticket holder as a reward for loyalty?

Those are player/PA/league holds. The CBA requires teams to make a number of tickets available to the players for purchase up until a few hours before the game and to the NHLPA up to 48 hours before the game.

Any of those held seats which aren't used can be released to the public.

Originally Posted by NHL CBA

ARTICLE 20
GAME TICKETS

(a) Each Club shall make available for purchase two (2) tickets per Player of each visiting team, provided, however, that the maximum number of tickets to be made available for any game shall be eighty (80). Fifty (50) of the eighty (80) said tickets shall be in the next to the highest price level excluding, wherever applicable, the price level for luxury suites, club seats and any premium seating, but in no event shall the tickets be for seats that are located above the lowest bowl in the arena. There is no restriction on the location of the remaining thirty (30) tickets. All tickets provided for in this Article shall be ordered and paid for by no later than 10:00 a.m. in the case of an afternoon game, and 1:00 p.m. on the day of the game in the case of an evening game. To the extent that tickets are not ordered in accordance with the prior sentence, the home Club shall be relieved of its obligation to make them available for purchase.

(b) Each Club shall make available two (2) complimentary tickets and a minimum of two (2) tickets for purchase per Player on the home team. A Player who wishes to purchase tickets shall do so at the beginning of the season. The said tickets shall be in the next to the highest price level excluding, wherever applicable, the price level of luxury suites, club seats and any premium seating, but in no event shall the tickets be for seats that are located above the lowest bowl in the arena.

(c) Each Club shall also make available for purchase by the NHLPA up to sixteen (16) tickets per Regular Season and Playoff home game. The amount of tickets available for purchase by the NHLPA will be increased to twenty (20) tickets per game in the Conference Finals and twenty-four (24) tickets per game in the Stanley Cup Finals. The said tickets shall be in the next to the highest price level excluding, wherever applicable, the price level for luxury suites, club seats and any premium seating, but in no event shall the tickets be for seats that are located above the lowest bowl in the arena. If the NHLPA desires tickets, it shall arrange for a fax to be delivered to the home Club, during normal business hours, 48 hours before the day of the game specifying the number of tickets it desires to purchase. At the time the tickets are ordered, the NHLPA shall pay for the tickets ordered by credit card. The Club shall make the tickets ordered available for pick up at the "will call" window during its normal hours on the day and evening of the game. To the extent that tickets are not ordered and paid for as set forth above, the home Club shall be relieved of its obligation to make them available.

I'm not sure what the League requires for their holds since that's not in the CBA, but I believe it's something similar.


I used to have a block of those player hold seats in the row behind my old season tickets. Every so often, you'd overhear people focusing too much on a fringe player on the visiting team and you'd know they were there for that player.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by RM14

Pretty sure the Flames decide which seats are available to season ticket holders.

Personally, I'll never load the Ticket Master app again based entirely on their ethics...

But I also wouldn't be far off in assuming that those tricks are green-lit by the Flames, but promoted by TM. It's pretty common across every league now.

[FaFaFlamey]

I hope this is just the beginning of a wake up call for the owners. They got spoiled by the unwavering support of the fan base....where it's basically the only game in town all winter. Heaven forbid they have to spend more of their money on an arena or two.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by getbak

I used to have a block of those player hold seats in the row behind my old season tickets. Every so often, you'd overhear people focusing too much on a fringe player on the visiting team and you'd know they were there for that player.

Yup and buying those last minute seats on game day was always kinda fun because you were usually sitting next to some Family Member, Spouse, Girl Friend, or Friend of either a Flames player or opposing player. Recall sitting next to some of Dion Phaneuf's family members a couple seasons back and they were sad that the fans were booing him when he touched the puck since he never wanted to leave.

Plus the last couple years the Flames have frequently been using these tickets that don't sell by mid-way through the first period to move down people with young kids that were sitting in the press level down to better seats - so that was a nice touch too.

[ST20]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

All fair, but I don't think my view point is short sighted. I think the business models for NFL and MLB make hard comparisons, and I'm not sure the Yankees play to full building most nights, pretty easy to get a ticket to a Yankees game when you go to New York, but that's not really fair for me to say either given just how large and how many games that team plays.

So I'll focus on the Leafs and the Canadians more. Montreal and Toronto (especially Toronto) have one very key difference that Calgary and almost any other market doesn't have going for them. They aren't subject to a true free market situation like other centers. What I mean by that, is if we were truly allowing NHL hockey supply and demand to dictate NHL strategy, there would be at least 2 other NHL franchises operating in the Toronto area to actually service the demand generated by that hockey loving population. This is what allows them to remain steady on attendance in ups and downs vs. say Calgary..........they are drawing from a fan base and population base that could actually support maybe even a total of 4 teams. This insulates them from what we experience in Calgary and other markets, not better branding, marketing, pricing strategy or otherwise. Running the TML must be the easiest thing in the world.........The biggest hockey market on the planet and to date you've been handed exclusive franchise rights.

If anything the Calgary has proven the Flames don't need to worry about brand damage or long term profitability when it comes to maybe over charging in some peoples mind during a down turn on the ice or off because its been proven the Fans will come back in droves when the team or the economy gets good again.

It doesn't have to be a sold out venue but these places undoubtedly do a better job at drumming up passion. Toronto has much more competition for $$s (basketball, baseball, MLS, sabres, football, and other entertainment options) but you're right it's not really comparable.

Instead let's focus on Calgary. A great way to convert a fan from being a casual fan or a fan of another team is to have them attend games. When they watch from home they have many options that they do not need to watch the flames and when they do they do not get caught up in the excitement of a room full of people all cheering together. I grew up in Ontario and the Leafs are probably still my favourite team. However, since I have moved to Calgary six years ago; I have gone to many flames games since they have been more accessible and slowly see myself cheering for the flames more and more (Leaf tickets were impossible - especially as a young person who lived in the GTA). I don't think I will ever be more of a Flames than a Leaf's fan but who knows because I do follow the Flames news more than I do the Leafs because I live here. When you start pricing people who are not real flames fans (why pay more for a team that isn't really your favourite unless your favourite comes to town) out of the equation than you miss your chance at future revenue streams by converting new fans. The stronger the fan support, the more support you get from casual fans who get caught up in the hype and then things tend to snow ball. This is why it is short sighted to me.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by FaFaFlamey

I hope this is just the beginning of a wake up call for the owners.

I think it's more likely that falling attendance will be spun as a justification for needing funding for a new arena.