05-20-2017, 11:07 AM
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#121
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevman
This is an unpopular opinion but I believe the Bow River tunnel is a mistake for this reason. I would have rather seen the train come into downtown elevated above grade and had the money to spend on a Crescent Heights station and more north line stations.
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Unfortunately that is the exact same line of thinking that got us the 7th Ave bottleneck, instead of burying 8th ave like they should have.
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05-20-2017, 11:12 AM
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#122
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironhorse
Unfortunately that is the exact same line of thinking that got us the 7th Ave bottleneck, instead of burying 8th ave like they should have.
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Not burying was the correct choice just look at Calgary and Edmonton systems. The key is that they can bury the Ctrain along Stephan Ave at any time capital is available.
The problem with the north line is that you don't have the option to go back and fix your mistake and the elevated to 16th Ave options were similar cost. So burying now is like the airport tunnel where if you don't do it now the cost is significantly more later.
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05-20-2017, 11:32 AM
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#123
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First Line Centre
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But I wasn't suggesting at grade through downtown that would require "fixing" in the future - I was suggesting above grade. Like I said it's an unpopular opinion but I like above grade trains. They don't seem to be a major issue in other cities around the world. Sometimes they even lead to unique building opportunities like the markets in Tokyo. And a light rail transit train beside a few office buildings is hardly as imposing as some of the elevated lines through residential areas in cities like Chicago or New York.
At $500 million cheaper you could afford to build more of the north line immediately as a result.
Anyway, the tunnels already been decided on so it's water under (over?) the bridge.
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05-20-2017, 11:36 AM
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#124
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Auckland, NZ
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Tunneling is the right option. For a city of this size and our climate, underground as much as possible, especially in and around downtown, should have been the plan from the start. At-grade and above-grade in the core is incredibly invasive within the limited space. Sometimes you have to just spend the money to do the right thing.
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05-20-2017, 01:07 PM
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#125
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevman
This is an unpopular opinion but I believe the Bow River tunnel is a mistake for this reason. I would have rather seen the train come into downtown elevated above grade and had the money to spend on a Crescent Heights station and more north line stations.
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Problems with elevated would be:
-Existing +15 system. Would have to work around it or possibly integrate it.
- CPR tracks require 10 meter clearance which poses challenges in terms of access, design and cost.
- Buidling and operating an elevated LRT line over Prince's Island Park is a negative
Those plus there not being as much of a cost difference from tunneling, and the negative of additional shadowing in Calgary's climate and aeshetics of the elevated structures.
Last edited by frinkprof; 05-20-2017 at 08:10 PM.
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05-22-2017, 05:12 PM
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#126
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Scoring Winger
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: YYC-ish
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LOL at people making the comparison to Vancouver. The effective reach of the Skytrain system is Vancouver, Burnaby, Coquitlam, and a bit of Richmond. The combined population of those 4 centres is 1,201,834 - or basically half of the metro Vancouver population. Skytrain does reach into Surrey, but not significantly.
Ridership should be roughly on par, and I would even expect Vancouver ridership to be lower. As another poster noted, Vancouver has many different sub-cities where people live and work that make up metro Vancouver. Total contrast to Calgary where you have one supersized city, and everyone commutes downtown regardless of where they live.
Calgary farrr less complicated terrain to build an at-grade system well, and should leverage that to keep building out an extensive network.
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05-22-2017, 05:19 PM
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#127
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Retired
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Back in Guelph
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muta
Tunneling is the right option. For a city of this size and our climate, underground as much as possible, especially in and around downtown, should have been the plan from the start.
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It was the plan, right from the very beginning.
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06-09-2017, 04:24 PM
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#128
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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06-09-2017, 04:53 PM
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#129
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California
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Still a walk from the dome or future dome which should help the entertainment district concept but not as nice on cold winter days as a directly attached station. If they commit to the entertainment district concept they need to not have a walkway either
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05-15-2018, 01:03 PM
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#130
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Some kinda newsbreaker!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Learning Phaneufs skating style
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05-15-2018, 01:23 PM
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#131
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Powerplay Quarterback
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
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http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...ne-lrt-project
Same funding commitment that was made three years ago. Nothing new.
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05-15-2018, 01:25 PM
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#132
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Ate 100 Treadmills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOWITZER
LOL at people making the comparison to Vancouver. The effective reach of the Skytrain system is Vancouver, Burnaby, Coquitlam, and a bit of Richmond. The combined population of those 4 centres is 1,201,834 - or basically half of the metro Vancouver population. Skytrain does reach into Surrey, but not significantly.
Ridership should be roughly on par, and I would even expect Vancouver ridership to be lower. As another poster noted, Vancouver has many different sub-cities where people live and work that make up metro Vancouver. Total contrast to Calgary where you have one supersized city, and everyone commutes downtown regardless of where they live.
Calgary farrr less complicated terrain to build an at-grade system well, and should leverage that to keep building out an extensive network.
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The SkyTrain in Vancouver goes into Surrey Central, so it's accessible by most of the population of Surrey. Although geographically not in the centre of the city, it's in the middle of the population centre.
There are about 500,000 daily riders in Vancouver vs. 300,000 in Calgary. Vancouver's ridership is expected to expand as the system is growing rapidly. If they build the UBC line, it'll result in a huge increase. It's not the terrain being the issue in Vancouver, so much as it is dealing with property owners.
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05-15-2018, 02:16 PM
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#133
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tromboner
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: where the lattes are
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
If they build the UBC line, it'll result in a huge increase.
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The line already exists but the next phase of its expansion won't be getting anywhere close to UBC.
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05-15-2018, 02:30 PM
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#134
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
The SkyTrain in Vancouver goes into Surrey Central, so it's accessible by most of the population of Surrey. Although geographically not in the centre of the city, it's in the middle of the population centre.
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My dad lives in North Delta, and when I fly out there I take sky train to Surrey to meet him. You're 100% correct that the Skytrain services Surrey. Same goes for Richmond, where a bunch of my family used to live. Essentially, the system is that a lot of the bus routes converge on the Skytrain station, and then the Skytrain station takes you wherever else you're going in the lower mainland. It's not a great system for getting from suburb to suburb, but for getting from anywhere to a central location (be it Broadway, Oakridge, UBC, downtown, Metrotown, Surrey Central, whatever) it's outstanding.
Imagine if the C-train stopped inside TD core, inside Chinook, inside Market Mall and in the centre of Okotoks and Airdrie, in addition to a few dozen other stops right next to important things (as opposed to like a km away from them). That's as close as I can compare. It's an excellent system. Combined with Car2Go and EVO many people really don't need a vehicle in the lower mainland.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
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05-15-2018, 02:41 PM
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#135
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague
My dad lives in North Delta, and when I fly out there I take sky train to Surrey to meet him. You're 100% correct that the Skytrain services Surrey. Same goes for Richmond, where a bunch of my family used to live. Essentially, the system is that a lot of the bus routes converge on the Skytrain station, and then the Skytrain station takes you wherever else you're going in the lower mainland. It's not a great system for getting from suburb to suburb, but for getting from anywhere to a central location (be it Broadway, Oakridge, UBC, downtown, Metrotown, Surrey Central, whatever) it's outstanding.
Imagine if the C-train stopped inside TD core, inside Chinook, inside Market Mall and in the centre of Okotoks and Airdrie, in addition to a few dozen other stops right next to important things (as opposed to like a km away from them). That's as close as I can compare. It's an excellent system. Combined with Car2Go and EVO many people really don't need a vehicle in the lower mainland.
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Okotoks and Airdrie are not even close to being contiguous with the City of Calgary - they are small satellites of a large central municipality. Vancouver is a very different region whereby Surrey is contiguous and has a population not that far below the central municipality of Vancouver.
Skytrain is a good system, no question. Calgary's is quite good too though - we achieve better per capita ridership.
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Trust the snake.
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05-15-2018, 02:47 PM
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#136
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Vancouver
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It's not just the SkyTrain that makes Vancouver's transit better though. The bus system is so many light years ahead of anything we see in Calgary it's not even funny.
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05-15-2018, 03:14 PM
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#137
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunk
Okotoks and Airdrie are not even close to being contiguous with the City of Calgary - they are small satellites of a large central municipality. Vancouver is a very different region whereby Surrey is contiguous and has a population not that far below the central municipality of Vancouver.
Skytrain is a good system, no question. Calgary's is quite good too though - we achieve better per capita ridership.
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Yeah, in addition Richmond is about 6 or 7 times the population of Okotoks and Surrey is 8 or 9 times the population of Airdrie. The GVRD is over twice the population of the Calgary Region.
That the CTrain reaches 22X in the south.and past Crowfoot in the northwest, and will soon reach greater Mckenzie Town in the southeast, especially given the overall population difference, is comparable to it going to Coquitlam or Richmond in the GVRD, at least in terms of reach.
Getting the CTrain to Airdrie and Okotoks is like having the Skytrain go to Mission or past Langley. Mission is served by the West Coast Express commuter rail, which is eventually what Airdrie, Cochrane and Okotoks will be served by.
The GVRD is served by a transit system befitting a Canadian urban region of nearly 3 million people. Once Calgary reaches that population, it will have a network as good or better.
Last edited by frinkprof; 05-15-2018 at 03:23 PM.
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05-15-2018, 03:41 PM
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#138
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunk
Okotoks and Airdrie are not even close to being contiguous with the City of Calgary - they are small satellites of a large central municipality. Vancouver is a very different region whereby Surrey is contiguous and has a population not that far below the central municipality of Vancouver.
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Yes, which is why I said it was the closest I could get to compare. It's a very different sort of service area. But it's far superior to what Calgary has right now and I have a hard time seeing how C-Train gets to a point where it's particularly close in terms of convenience. I could live in Vancouver without a car, thanks to their system. Not so in this city.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
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05-15-2018, 03:46 PM
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#139
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague
Yes, which is why I said it was the closest I could get to compare. It's a very different sort of service area. But it's far superior to what Calgary has right now and I have a hard time seeing how C-Train gets to a point where it's particularly close in terms of convenience. I could live in Vancouver without a car, thanks to their system. Not so in this city.
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You can easily live without a car in Calgary, at least in the inner city. Lots do. If you live anywhere within 2-3 km of downtown there's very little you can't do by foot, bike or transit very conveniently. Basically the dark blue area here:
It would be much harder in outlying areas, though, yes.
One thing that will help Calgary's system quite a bit is the BRT lines going in. Getting that connecting network of frequent service crosstown routes - like North Crosstown, South Crosstown, SW BRT, 17th SE line - will supplement the LRT system well.
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Trust the snake.
Last edited by Bunk; 05-15-2018 at 03:52 PM.
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05-15-2018, 03:47 PM
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#140
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tromboner
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: where the lattes are
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach
It's not just the SkyTrain that makes Vancouver's transit better though. The bus system is so many light years ahead of anything we see in Calgary it's not even funny.
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Oh god, I disagree with this so much. Sure, there's more routes, more schedule density etc. But they also do things that should be completely unacceptable. Far more frequently than in Calgary I have had busses just completely not show up. Other times, they're so overcapacity that they just skip pick-ups entirely (I have had four busses in a row skip picking me up, as the only person at a stop, on a cold wintery day - it's rage-inducing). If you're lucky enough to be on the bus, you get the intercom telling you to move to the back, as if you'll magically be able to manoeuvre back to exit when you need to despite the bus being completely full of people, which you can't. Not having space to move around in the bus ends up either causing schedule delays or people missing their stops if they're not yelling "back door" loud enough.
Sure, it's got some good things going for it, but they seem to be completely incapable of responding to demand appropriately. I have called customer service and had them be completely unaware of missing busses, never mind being able to send a replacement to fill the scheduling gap. I don't know if the drivers aren't communicating that they aren't running enough capacity, or they are but nobody does anything, but either way it seems like underservicing busy routes is totally normalized here.
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