Am I Asking for Trouble?/Replacing Logic Board Capacitors

[Barnes]

Here's the deal...

I have an iMac G5 whose logic board failed for the second time. The extended logic board replacement program ended in Jan and my complaining doesn't seem to be getting through to anyone.

I can replace the system for $400 (ebay) or get a new logic board for $450.

After some further investigation, I discovered that the 3rd party capacitors Apple used were faulty as the electrolyte formula was stolen from another company and they missed one ingredient.

I can buy a replacement set for $30.

How hard is it to solder new ones in? I am fairly good with stuff like this. I would have a set of instructions and have experience with soldering from some jewelry and metalworking courses I took at ACAD.

Can I do this?

Here is the location of the capacitors...


The computer is scrap but I only want to invest the time if this is something I will be successful at.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Well if you are good at this kind of thing, you are miles ahead of most people. At the end of the day, the thing is scrap, you have nothing to lose.

[sclitheroe]

People are getting this repaired/replaced by Apple even outside the extended warranty for this issue, when it is in fact the capacitors failing a second or third time.

What you need to do is book and appointment with the Genius Bar at the Apple store and take it in for an official Apple person to diagnose. If the problem is once again failed capacitors, and Apple confirms this, then obviously the problem was not corrected the first time it was sent in for the bad caps, and you have a leg to stand on, and can begin escalating with the Genius, his manager, etc, right up the Apple food chain.

I assume you haven't had an official Apple diagnosis performed yet, and this is why your complaints are falling on deaf ears - the problem occured once before, was "fixed", and now, you are claiming it has happened again, without a diagnosis by a certified repair guy.

Good luck - if you've had this known defect fixed by Apple before, and it is in fact this defect again, I think you have a very good chance of getting it fixed or replaced.

[photon]

If the Apple aspect doesn't work out, do some good research before you go ahead with the repair, or even consider getting someone who has experience and the right tool to do it.

It's probably a multi-layer board and soldering those can be a bit tougher, you usually need the right soldering iron to do it properly, otherwise it's pretty easy to overheat things.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by photon

If the Apple aspect doesn't work out, do some good research before you go ahead with the repair, or even consider getting someone who has experience and the right tool to do it.

It's probably a multi-layer board and soldering those can be a bit tougher, you usually need the right soldering iron to do it properly, otherwise it's pretty easy to overheat things.

Seconded. You would want a proper temperature controlled soldering station to do the job, 20 caps is a lot of work, and they could be packed in quite tightly at that.

[Barnes]

Thanks for the replies. I will try the Apple store route first. I was there last week replacing a shorted out MagSafe adapter.

I had a little breakdown the next day when the iMac failed as well. My first reaction is to solve the problem myself even though I have always been takin care of by apple warranty or not.

It is definatly at least one bad capacitor. The cap is swollen. The power supply's diagnostic lled lights up but the logic boards does not. Reseting the SMU or the internal power switch does nothing as well.

[sclitheroe]

I started a thread over at Ars Technica to see what the Mac geek community thinks about this, because I'm curious now (and would like to see the OP's Mac fixed, of course)

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/...1#639005878931

It's a good question, because there are a number of issues that affect other machines (eg. bad nVidia GPU's on last-gen Macbook Pro's), and I wonder how Apple handles these situations.

[Barnes]

Thanks sclitheroe. Reading those posts give me some confidence. I'll take it in this week.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Thanks sclitheroe. Reading those posts give me some confidence. I'll take it in this week.

Not as informative a thread as I had hoped, but I know other people over there have gotten these kinds of repairs taken care of regardless of warranty status.

Keep us posted, interested to see how it turns out

[Bobblehead]

OK, I haven't been to Ars in a couple of weeks - when did they change the forums?


On topic:

See if you can cajol Apple to do the fix. Failing that....

I worked in an electronics shop during high school and did a lot of soldering of circuit boards.

Make sure you get the correct capacitors, with the exact same specs if you can.
When you remove the current ones make sure you keep track of how they came out. Electrolytics are polarized. Put them in the wrong way and they pop.
I always had luck with solder wick when removing things from boards. I found the solder sucker things too hit or miss.
Use a soldering iron made for electronics. You can get the guns, but they are more unweildy and can sometimes get too hot. If it has a pre-tinned tip, so much the better. You'll also want a slightly damp sponge handy for cleaning the tip (if possible).
When putting the new part in, push the leads through the holes (if they are surface mounted it will be trickier), then bend them out a bit to hold them in. Heat the leads and the contact surface, and when you see the residual solder start to liquefy dab on a little bit of your new solder. The solder should grab onto the board and the leads. You just want a little bit, too much and you risk getting a blob on the other side.

It isn't as hard as it sounds, I'm just giving you an idea what to look for. When you do one it will make sense, and good luck.

[Barnes]

Great. Thanks. If Apple doesn't fix it I'll be at your house Thursday evening.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Barnes

After some further investigation, I discovered that the 3rd party capacitors Apple used were faulty as the electrolyte formula was stolen from another company and they missed one ingredient.

LOL, the gift that keeps on giving. Many, many manufacturers had this problem after they switched to a Chinese company that stole the formula from a Japanese competitor, but screwed up. A few years ago, I had to replace hundreds of motherboards for this exact reason. IBM told us we were one of the first companies in the world to identify the problem (yeah right).

The kicker was that there was at least a 20% failure rate in the replacement boards because the s IBM hired to re-solder proper capacitors managed to cut a lead to two capacitors as part of their process.

In the end, IBM got hammered hard over this, and sold their entire desktop business to Lenovo shortly after. Ironically, Lenovo is a Chinese company.

[Top Shelf]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

LOL, the gift that keeps on giving. Many, many manufacturers had this problem after they switched to a Chinese company that stole the formula from a Japanese competitor, but screwed up. A few years ago, I had to replace hundreds of motherboards for this exact reason. IBM told us we were one of the first companies in the world to identify the problem (yeah right).

The kicker was that there was at least a 20% failure rate in the replacement boards because the s IBM hired to re-solder proper capacitors managed to cut a lead to two capacitors as part of their process.

In the end, IBM got hammered hard over this, and sold their entire desktop business to Lenovo shortly after. Ironically, Lenovo is a Chinese company.

Ditto, except we had Dell GX270's with motherboards manufactured between certain dates.

I remember replacing the motherboards and the caps on the board would be either bulging or the electrolyte was actually starting to come up.

We learned to recognize the symptoms fast too. Users would call up saying there computer was randomly shutting down or there would a temperature error on the screen.

I never knew it wasn't just Dell though...although I guess most manufacturers use similar parts.

[Barnes]

No dice at the Apple Store. The guy said to me that the computer is 4 years old and how can I expect them to warranty it. He really didn't seem to understand that it's really only under two years old and that faulty parts that where fixed with more faulty ones.

I will call customer relations tomorrow to try and get an exemption number.

I feel really let down by this. I have always been a Mac user. I have never owned a copy of Windows in my life for home use. I am a software designer for a Windows based application and have been messing with Windows 7 at work. It's good.

What some people see as a premium price point for Apple's products I always saw as a cost for quality hardware, design and service. I'm not sure I can justify it any longer. I love OS X and my iPhone but their hardware just plain sucks. My Macbook has been a G'damn nightmare as well.

I am seriously thinking of a Dell Mini Hackintosh.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

A couple of long shots here...

Try calling up Active Electronics here and see if they can refer you to someone who can do the work for you.

http://www.active123.com/store.cfm?CKEY=CA&lang=eng

Or, try the users at CASEMP here in town, a refuge for local snerdy types. It's not a very big userbase but there are a couple guys there who are good at soldering - fellow survivors of bad caps on ABIT boards. Or they can give you tips. Try a post.

http://www.casemp.com/forum/

[Bobblehead]

What happened with this?

Speaking with Gobsgraham tonight, he mentioned he has done this process a number of times and if you are still looking for help to give him a shout out.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

What happened with this?

Speaking with Gobsgraham tonight, he mentioned he has done this process a number of times and if you are still looking for help to give him a shout out.

Apple wont do anything.

I recovered the data I needed with a SATA USB convertor thingy and am manually switching my iTunes database and xml files so that I can trick my iPhone to think it belongs with my Macbook. This has bought me some time while I decide what my next computer will be (thinking about an Asus Sea Shell)

I still want to fix the iMac. For a $.10 part, it seems ridiculous to throw it out.

I will get in touch with Gobsgraham. Does he like beer?

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Apple wont do anything.

I recovered the data I needed with a SATA USB convertor thingy and am manually switching my iTunes database and xml files so that I can trick my iPhone to think it belongs with my Macbook. This has bought me some time while I decide what my next computer will be (thinking about an Asus Sea Shell)

I still want to fix the iMac. For a $.10 part, it seems ridiculous to throw it out.

I will get in touch with Gobsgraham. Does he like beer?

Judging by the Golden Tee give-away, Yes!


Edit: It was at that he was explaining how he fixed up the Golden Tee machine by replacing some capacitors. I mentioned this thread and he said to point you in his direction.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Judging by the Golden Tee give-away, Yes!


Edit: It was at that he was explaining how he fixed up the Golden Tee machine by replacing some capacitors. I mentioned this thread and he said to point you in his direction.

Great. Thanks. I will get in touch with him.

[mykalberta]

Soldering capacitors is not difficult. Its the tightness of them that would make the job difficult. Dont invest in expensive soldering. Just a normal solder with a fine tip should handle the job.

Its not difficult at all. The only thing I would worry about is the charge they might still be carrying. Those capacitors can sometimes hold a charge for quite a while. I would research that as that is the only real problem I can see with the whole issue.

Also, you might not have to replace everyone. You can tell a blown capacitor by its "muffin-top" appearance. The top will looked bowed out not straight like it should be. If its just the formula that is wrong then why does the pick show an increased capacitor capacity 10v compared to 6.8v. That seems strange to me and might cause problems down the road. If you can find a more similar voltage that might work better IMO.