Another example of idiot judges.

[jolinar of malkshor]

A recent decision of the British Columbia Provincial Court has sparked controversy about how the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) police the border.

[I]The judgement in R. v. Sekhon was released July 13, 2007. The defendant, a Canadian citizen, was accused of smuggling cocaine into the country. An experienced border guard stopped Sekhon for questioning because of his “tense and nervous” demeanour . The resulting detention and search lasted for several hours and culminated in inspectors drilling into the defendant’s pick-up truck in search of drugs before towing the vehicle to an alternate location for further examination. Inspectors found 50 kilograms of cocaine in a false compartment under the truck bed. At trial, the defendant successfully argued that his rights under sections 8, 9 and 10 of the Charter has been violated and that the evidence should be excluded pursuant to s. 24(2) of the Charter.

http://www.law.ualberta.ca/centres/c...Violations.php

There is years of case law that have defined customs powers most notably R. vs. Simmons which the Supreme court of Canada has ruled that there is little to no reasonable expectation of privacy when entering Canada and warrantless searches at a Port of Entry does not violate S. 8 of the Charter. It is demonstrably justified to limit these rights at a border to protect society and the sovereignty of a Country.

Why would a judge throw out a case like this? I have no doubts that this will be won on appeal.

Thoughts?

[mrdeeds]

This is frickin ridiculous. I also think the appeal will definitely be successful. I'd like to had seen the arguements by the defense. You'd hope that this would not effect our border services doing their job.

Interesting side note though. When we came back to the border from Washington, it was a late night on a Saturday and there were so many vehicles going thru. It was over an hour delay getting though because of volume. In this environment there easily could have been some contraband entering the country with little or no question.

[HOOT]

This doesn't suprise me. I hate crossing the boarder not because I have something on me or have done anything wrong but jsut the fact I know they can rip my car apart and leave it for me to put back together.

I was once held up at the Alberta/Montana boarder for a few hours, they took my car, searched it with dogs and then they gave me a huge hassel about a lighter than had marijuana risidue on it.

I just told them they searched my car and found nothing, the risude could have come from someone borrowing it at the bar and I was not sure what the hassel was as what was I going to do scrape off the risidue and sell it for big money down in the states

They know what kind of power they have and they definetly abuse it sometimes!

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by HOOT

This doesn't suprise me. I hate crossing the boarder not because I have something on me or have done anything wrong but jsut the fact I know they can rip my car apart and leave it for me to put back together.

I was once held up at the Alberta/Montana boarder for a few hours, they took my car, searched it with dogs and then they gave me a huge hassel about a lighter than had marijuana risidue on it.

I just told them they searched my car and found nothing, the risude could have come from someone borrowing it at the bar and I was not sure what the hassel was as what was I going to do scrape off the risidue and sell it for big money down in the states

They know what kind of power they have and they definetly abuse it sometimes!

In your case, I can sort of see why they searched your car, and don't really blame them.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by HOOT

This doesn't suprise me. I hate crossing the boarder not because I have something on me or have done anything wrong but jsut the fact I know they can rip my car apart and leave it for me to put back together.

I was once held up at the Alberta/Montana boarder for a few hours, they took my car, searched it with dogs and then they gave me a huge hassel about a lighter than had marijuana risidue on it.

I just told them they searched my car and found nothing, the risude could have come from someone borrowing it at the bar and I was not sure what the hassel was as what was I going to do scrape off the risidue and sell it for big money down in the states

They know what kind of power they have and they definetly abuse it sometimes!

Just curious....were you heading into the US when this happened or coming back home?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by mrdeeds

This is frickin ridiculous. I also think the appeal will definitely be successful. I'd like to had seen the arguements by the defense. You'd hope that this would not effect our border services doing their job.

Interesting side note though. When we came back to the border from Washington, it was a late night on a Saturday and there were so many vehicles going thru. It was over an hour delay getting though because of volume. In this environment there easily could have been some contraband entering the country with little or no question.

I have seen some stats where Customs only catches about 5% of all contraband entering the country. There just isnt enough officers to search the vehicles without bringing the borders to a complete standstill. Most of the contraband comes in on Commercial vehciles.

I think customs only searches about 4% of all vehicles entering the country.

[ken0042]

I have to disagree with you assesment, Jolinar. From what's in the article (and I did just skim it so tell me if I missed something) but they drilled holes in his truck based on him being nervous, still found nothing, then proceeded to do a more invasive and likely destructive search and finally found something.

In my mind what should be done is the laws need to be changed; not to give customs the right to rip apart somebody's vehicle because he's nervous, but to make trafficing of drugs across the border such a severe crime that the penalty will deter people from doing it.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

In your case, I can sort of see why they searched your car, and don't really blame them.

How do you figure?

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Just curious....were you heading into the US when this happened or coming back home?

I was heading down to the states, I know your story was about coming into Canada. But it goes both ways and they both abuse their power.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by HOOT

How do you figure?



I was heading down to the states, I know your story was about coming into Canada. But it goes both ways and they both abuse their power.

When did they find the lighter? It seems to me that finding marijuana residue would be a good reason to either search a car, or continue searching a car. Maybe you didn't have any, and maybe the residue did get there in the bar, but I don't really see why searching your car was that bad of a decision.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I have to disagree with you assesment, Jolinar. From what's in the article (and I did just skim it so tell me if I missed something) but they drilled holes in his truck based on him being nervous, still found nothing, then proceeded to do a more invasive and likely destructive search and finally found something.

In my mind what should be done is the laws need to be changed; not to give customs the right to rip apart somebody's vehicle because he's nervous, but to make trafficing of drugs across the border such a severe crime that the penalty will deter people from doing it.

The article doesn't tell much of what indicators the officers had.....but let me asure you it was much more than just him being nervous. They have access to many tools that would help determine if someone is smuggling including ion scanners, detector dogs and x-ray equipment. You mention that they drilled into the truck and found nothing and then proceeded to do a more destructive exam. The article does not say that at all. It says that they drilled into the truck to find drugs and then towed it to another location. I have read several articles on this and a few of them mentioned that they found drugs after drilling into the truck....at which point they need to take the truck to a facility to remove the concealment area. I have tried to find those articles again but it appears that you now have to login to the news providers. Even tho....that makes much more sense.....It's not as if they just tore the guys vehcile tobits because of mere suspicion. If customs damages your vehicle in the process of a search and finds nothing....they have to pay for the damages. And contrary to popular belief....it is customs policy to pack the vehcile and or personal belongings back into the car if they do not find anything after a search.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by HOOT

How do you figure?



I was heading down to the states, I know your story was about coming into Canada. But it goes both ways and they both abuse their power.

The US is much more concerned about marijuana than their counterparts in Canada....although.....if the Canadian officials had found the lighter at the beginning of the exam and it tested positive, you probably would have been search completely aswell. I don't think it would have take 2 hours tho.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

When did they find the lighter? It seems to me that finding marijuana residue would be a good reason to either search a car, or continue searching a car. Maybe you didn't have any, and maybe the residue did get there in the bar, but I don't really see why searching your car was that bad of a decision.

Because they had no cause to search my car in the first place we had all our ID we had a travell plan plus they found the lighter AFTER they started searching the car, it wasn't even on me it was under my passenger seat probably with a million other things I didn't even know were in my car.

The funny thing is they go through all this trouble and time to search my car, find this lighter and then didn't even search me or anyone I was with. It just doens't make sense, maybe they were bored.

Then they found it was their duty to tell me why marijuana is bad. If it wasn't the American Boarder guards I would have told them to f@ck off. I don't care what they think about weed, I'm from BC people smoke weed like they breathe air. Weed should be the least of their problems when it comes to drugs coming and going.

Personally I don't care that is just something I plan for when crossing the boarders because they are complete jokes. They all want to be the hero that captures the bad coming into their country, but when they are busy harrassing a mid 20's guy with a lighter that had some risidue there was probably a semi truck full of it going through somewhere else.

edit: Sorry I didn't mean to derail this thread, I was just trying to share my expereince of boarder officials.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

When did they find the lighter? It seems to me that finding marijuana residue would be a good reason to either search a car, or continue searching a car. Maybe you didn't have any, and maybe the residue did get there in the bar, but I don't really see why searching your car was that bad of a decision.

Good points.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Because they had no cause to search my car in the first place we had all our ID we had a travell plan plus they found the lighter AFTER they started searching the car, it wasn't even on me it was under my passenger seat probably with a million other things I didn't even know were in my car.

They don't need cause to search your vehicle....you are a guest into their country and even if you are a citizen, they have a right to search your vehicle, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. I agree that if they spent 2 hours looking at your stuff, then that is a little to long IMO. As for the reason they didn't search your person....that would require reasonable grounds to suspect and I am not sure those grounds would be present with just finding THC residue on a lighter. They also shouldn't have lectured you on the use of marijuana....it is not their place.

Personally I don't care that is just something I plan for when crossing the boarders because they are complete jokes. They all want to be the hero that captures the bad coming into their country, but when they are busy harrassing a mid 20's guy with a lighter that had some risidue there was probably a semi truck full of it going through somewhere else.

The thing is....many large seizures are found because of small indicators such as this. They never know if you do have 20 kilos hidden somewhere or just the residue on a lighter.

[fredr123]

http://canlii.org/eliisa/highlight.d...07bcpc224.html

That's the actual case if anyone is interested. I just read through it and think that it probably will be overturned on appeal. However, I think judges need to smack the officers involved around a wee bit.

I agree that there is a lower expectation of privacy at a port of entry and that you are compelled to answer questions and submit to a search of your belongings or vehicle. That much is not in dispute.

What bothers me about this case, and how some officers at the border conduct themselves generally, is the attitude of the officers towards the law.

"I can search for whatever I want wherever I want."

"You aren't permitted to leave but you have no rights unless I say so."

"I spend dozens of hours every month interviewing people crossing the border and my instincts and suspicions are infallible."

Of course I'm exaggerating and generalizing but at times you encounter border officers that wish they were cowboys in the wild west. Reading between the lines in this case, you can kind of see the judge rebuking the officers for a similar attitude. A little common sense and more professional attitude and there would have been a slam-dunk drug conviction here...

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Because they had no cause to search my car in the first place we had all our ID we had a travell plan plus they found the lighter AFTER they started searching the car, it wasn't even on me it was under my passenger seat probably with a million other things I didn't even know were in my car.

The funny thing is they go through all this trouble and time to search my car, find this lighter and then didn't even search me or anyone I was with. It just doens't make sense, maybe they were bored.

Then they found it was their duty to tell me why marijuana is bad. If it wasn't the American Boarder guards I would have told them to f@ck off. I don't care what they think about weed, I'm from BC people smoke weed like they breathe air. Weed should be the least of their problems when it comes to drugs coming and going.

Personally I don't care that is just something I plan for when crossing the boarders because they are complete jokes. They all want to be the hero that captures the bad coming into their country, but when they are busy harrassing a mid 20's guy with a lighter that had some risidue there was probably a semi truck full of it going through somewhere else.

edit: Sorry I didn't mean to derail this thread, I was just trying to share my expereince of boarder officials.

So you want them searching every semi truck completely, but they aren't allowed to search your car? Your reasons for allowing weed into the US are pretty weak. BC residence doesn't mean squat, it's still illegal everywhere in our two countries. You are really contradicting yourself a lot in these posts.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

The thing is....many large seizures are found because of small indicators such as this. They never know if you do have 20 kilos hidden somewhere or just the residue on a lighter.

Many large seizures are found because officers are lucky. More often than not, thesee indicators result in zilch.

[HOOT]

Fair enough that is why I plan for it when I am making the trip down there. I always leave myself lots of time.

I think it is just the way they treated us and talked to us is what got me all pissy. Not to mention the amount of time it took them to search and tear apart my car. They opened every sealed product we had (bags of chips, pop and so on) and it looked like a hurricane went through my car when I got it back.

These guys were obiviously on a power trip for that shift because they had some 18 year old americans in custody with us while they were searching my vehicle. I guess these guys had been there for close to 5 hours because the border gaurds searched their car and found 2 beers in a cooler hahaha And because they were underage, but were just in Alberta so they could buy, they were keeping them there until they got a hold of all their parents.

They were from California and all of them had to make it back in time for work the next day, but now they were all going to miss it. I would love to explain that to my boss

They were freakin' out, it was priceless.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I have to disagree with you assesment, Jolinar. From what's in the article (and I did just skim it so tell me if I missed something) but they drilled holes in his truck based on him being nervous, still found nothing, then proceeded to do a more invasive and likely destructive search and finally found something.

In my mind what should be done is the laws need to be changed; not to give customs the right to rip apart somebody's vehicle because he's nervous, but to make trafficing of drugs across the border such a severe crime that the penalty will deter people from doing it.

I forgot to mention about your stronger laws are need comment. Importing cocain into Canada can net you life in prison. Can't get much harsher than that.

Like most of our laws.....they have suffiecient penalties built into them....the judges never impose the sentences.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by fredr123

Many large seizures are found because officers are lucky. More often than not, thesee indicators result in zilch.

Luck does play a roll in find contraband as does luck play a roll in anything in life. I would disagree with you that more often then not it results in ziltch. Finding residue on anything indicates that the person using that item was in direct contact with that substance and usually will result in finding other indicators or items such as pipes, roaches, papers ect.

Large seizure are found because officers don't discount these indicators and finds are made when there are a multiplicity of indicators not just one.